In this episode of Executive Connect, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Dr. Ryan Gottfredson to talk about vertical leadership development, the hidden operating systems that drive behavior, and why so many high performers stay stuck in hustle mode. Ryan explains the difference between horizontal growth and vertical growth, why most leaders operate from fear without realizing it, and how that fear shows up in control, overwork, defensiveness, and short-term thinking. He also shares why emotional regulation, mindset work, and healing past patterns are essential for leaders who want to create long-term value instead of just short-term results.

This episode is for executives, founders, and ambitious leaders who are tired of running at high RPMs and want to lead with more clarity, trust, and maturity. Press play before you mistake more effort for real growth.

Chapters:
(0:31) Why leadership is more about being than doing
(1:30) Ryan’s path into leadership research
(3:06) What traditional leadership models were missing
(5:24) Why hustle culture keeps leaders stuck
(5:56) The three adult development levels
(10:04) Why so few leaders reach level three
(15:08) The fear that holds most leaders back
(17:46) How fear shows up at work
(21:32) Why founders often struggle even more with this
(21:51) How mindset shifts actually happen
(24:13) Why emotional awareness matters so much
(29:06) Horizontal growth versus vertical growth
(32:16) What changes when someone develops vertically
(34:33) What true value creation looks like
(38:24) Ryan’s book and final advice
(39:34) Healing, leadership, and where to connect

Ryan

(0:00) So if we’ve got these three levels, let’s call it just level one, level two, and level three, what the research has found across all adults is that 64% of all adults operate at level one, 35% operate at level two, and only 1% gets to level three. (0:18) And it’s at that level three where the most effective leadership resides because at each of these levels, our body’s internal operating system is programmed to fulfill different needs.

Melissa

(0:31) What if I told you the secret to escaping the grind isn’t about adding another productivity hack or waking up at 4 a.m.? My guest today, Dr. Ryan Gottfriedson, says the real breakthrough comes when leaders stop obsessing over doing more and start focusing on becoming more. (0:52) Ryan’s a bestselling author, professor, and global authority on vertical leadership development. (0:58) And he’s here to show us how upgrading your inner operating system, not our calendars, unlocks transformational growth.

(1:08) This is about legacy-level leadership, not just another to-do list. (1:14) Welcome to the show, Ryan.

Ryan

(1:16) Hey, thanks for having me, Melissa. (1:17) I’ve been looking forward to this.

Melissa

(1:19) Now, you’ve been called a global authority on vertical leadership development. (1:25) Before we dig in, can you share your journey in this work?

Ryan

(1:30) For sure. (1:31) I did my PhD in organizational behavior and human resources at Indiana University. (1:37) So when we’re recording this, Indiana University just won the national championship in football, so I need to give a shout out because they won more bowl games this year than they had in their 125 years prior to this.

(1:49) So I’m kind of riding a high at the moment. (1:52) So Indiana University is where I was at. (1:54) I’m doing my dissertation on leadership.

(1:57) And what I came to find reviewing the last 70 years of leadership research was that most leadership research focuses on answering one primary question. (2:08) And that primary question is, what do leaders need to do to be effective? (2:13) And that’s actually led to some good answers.

(2:16) I like some of the things that have come out of this. (2:18) But to me, that’s always felt short-sighted. (2:22) Because to me, leadership isn’t about doing things, checking things off our to-do list.

(2:28) Leadership is about being a certain type of person, being somebody that others want to follow. (2:35) And so after graduating with my PhD, that’s been the focus of my research over the last 12 years is how do we tap into the being side of leadership?

Melissa

(2:45) I love it. (2:45) Now, first of all, yay for the game. (2:49) I watched the game.

(2:50) It was a great game. (2:51) And I definitely said there was a lot of leadership that happened on that field that day. (2:57) So what were you seeing in leaders that traditional development models weren’t solving when you were doing your PhD?

Ryan

(3:06) Well, what was really interesting, right, is that I’m coming across leaders in my research and also in my consulting that seem to be doing the right things, but it’s just not going very well. (3:24) And so one of the things that I’ve learned is that two different leaders can engage in the same behavior, but that behavior isn’t what drives their effectiveness or success. (3:35) Actually, what we’ve come to find out, what drives our effectiveness success are our mindsets and motives that are lying beneath our behaviors.

(3:46) And so, right, if we can give feedback to a subordinate, I can have two leaders give feedback, but if the motive of that feedback is I’m delivering that as a leader because I want them to step up, that’s gonna be received differently than if my motive is I want them to be at their best, right? (4:09) So one is a self-serving motive and the other is an other-focused motive. (4:15) And so what seems to motive is not just doing certain things, but it’s the reason why we’re doing those things.

(4:22) And that’s all connected back into our motives and also our mindsets.

Melissa

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(4:39) Don’t just watch, act. (4:41) And I love this discussion because motives are really important and they’re not just work motives. (4:48) Like, I think your motives are also affected by your life, your personal life that affect your professional life.

(4:56) And I know, you know, we always came to work just doing our job. (5:00) There wasn’t a lot to talk about professionally and I’m seeing more of this coming into the workforce now. (5:07) You know, we talk about, you know, work-life balance and, you know, having better cultures and understanding our employees, but you’re spot on.

(5:15) I think motive is such an important part of understanding why our employees and our leaders do what they do and what they expect in their current roles. (5:24) I wanna talk a little bit about this hustle trap, hustle culture. (5:30) How do we break free from it?

(5:32) So many leaders believe that more hustle, more hacks, more organization is going to net them something that they’re hoping for. (5:42) But you argue that approach is fundamentally broken. (5:46) You say leadership growth isn’t about doing more, it’s about upgrading the internal operating system.

(5:53) Tell us a little bit about that and what does it actually mean?

Ryan

(5:56) Yeah, so this is really fascinating. (5:58) And the ideas that I’m gonna share with you are rooted in the field of developmental psychology. (6:04) So developmental psychology is all about how people learn, grow, and develop throughout their lifespan.

(6:10) And for most of the history of developmental psychology, the focus has been on child development. (6:15) So we know that there’s different child development stages. (6:19) And for the longest time, developmental psychologists assumed that adults don’t develop in adulthood.

(6:26) But what research has found over the last 30 years is that adults can develop. (6:32) And in fact, there are three different adult development stages. (6:36) But what’s super fascinating about their research is that while they found adults can develop, and there are these three different stages, they found that most adults never develop in adulthood.

(6:47) So if we’ve got these three levels, let’s call it just level one, level two, and level three, what their research has found across all adults is that 64% of all adults operate at level one, 35% operate at level two, and only 1% gets to level three. (7:06) And it’s at that level three where the most effective leadership resides. (7:11) Because at each of these levels, our body’s internal operating system is programmed to fulfill different needs.

(7:19) So at level one, our bodies are wired for safety, comfort, and belonging. (7:24) And that’s where 64% of adults operate. (7:28) They wanna do what will make them feel safe, comfortable, and feel like they belong.

(7:32) The next level up is our needs are to stand out, advance, and get ahead. (7:37) In fact, that’s where most leaders operate. (7:40) So I told you we had 64%, 35%, 1%.

(7:44) If we look at just executives, the percentages are 7% at level one, 85% at level two that wanna stand, are wired to stand out, advance, and get ahead, and only 8% of executives are at that top level. (8:02) And so level three then is our bodies are not wired to stand in, and they’re not wired to stand out. (8:10) They’re wired to contribute, add value, and lift others.

(8:16) And so what we find, and this is what I see when I work with organizations and the leaders within them, is that 85% of leaders are these, I wanna, they’re wired to stand out, advance, and get ahead. (8:28) Well, what that means is that when they want to be more successful, in their mind, the approach to do so is to push harder, right? (8:39) So they wanna push on the gas pedal harder.

(8:42) And guess what happens when we push on the gas pedal harder? (8:44) The RPMs go up, and we start to burn out over time. (8:51) And so what I help leaders to understand is that most leaders operate in what I call fourth gear, right?

(8:59) If you’ve ever driven manual transmission, fourth gear is great because we can go really fast, but the RPMs are really high when we’re going fast in fourth gear. (9:08) And that’s where 85% of leaders are. (9:11) And so I help leaders to recognize if you wanna go even faster and at lower RPMs, what you have to do is you have to shift gears.

(9:21) You have to shift out of fourth gear and into fifth gear, jump up into this third level, if you will. (9:27) And if we can do that, we could actually go faster and at lower RPMs. And so that’s what I focus on. (9:36) And that’s not about, right?

(9:37) As you mentioned, that’s not about pushing harder. (9:40) It’s not about doing more. (9:43) It’s actually about reprogramming our body’s internal operating system, which is when we do that, we’re elevating our being.

(9:51) We’re not just doing more. (9:54) Does that make sense or?

Melissa

(9:56) Yeah, no, no, it does. (9:57) And I’m curious, 8% in your top, your tier three leaders, that seems pretty low to me. (10:04) So I guess the question is most of the high performers are level two, it sounds like, but why do they often resist that inner work the most to get to that level three, 8%?

Ryan

(10:18) Yeah, really great question. (10:19) Let me bring this to life with a couple of examples. (10:21) So I’m gonna say a stereotypical level two executive is Jack Welsh of GE, right?

(10:29) Jack Welsh used to be celebrated as a really great leader because he grew GE stock price 6,000 times during his tenure, right? (10:36) That’s incredible. (10:38) But the reason why we would classify him as a level two leader is because he was just really great at grinding in the short term.

(10:48) They did whatever it took to hit the short term milestones that were expected of them. (10:54) And they were good at doing that quarter after quarter, year after year. (10:58) But if we now kind of look at the marketplace, how is GE doing right now?

(11:03) It’s effectively defunct. (11:05) That’s because the short term orientation that they had led them to make decisions that were really good for them in the short term, but really bad for them in the long term. (11:16) And so that’s one of the reasons why I would classify him as one of these level two leaders, right?

(11:20) They’re willing to push hard to get the short term returns. (11:24) A really great example and kind of contemporary, if you will, of Jack Welsh is Alan Mullally at Ford. (11:32) Now, Alan Mullally at Ford also, he was transformative at Ford.

(11:35) He took them from losing $12 billion in 2006 to being the only American auto manufacturer that didn’t need a government bailout in 2009. (11:47) And the reason why he was able to do this is because he was actually willing to sacrifice short term returns for long term value creation. (11:58) So they made some huge investments that didn’t look good necessarily on their financial statement in the short term, but put them into position to be successful in the long term.

(12:11) And so those are a couple of examples to kind of paint the difference. (12:14) And ultimately, what generally gets celebrated in the business world are the people who hit short term returns. (12:23) So in many ways, leaders are incentivized to operate at that second level.

(12:28) But what we’ve also learned about these second level leaders is they generally lack, because they’re pushing so hard, they lack the capability to navigate complexity effectively. (12:40) And if we want to be a leader that navigates complexity effectively, we can’t be operating at high RPMs. It’s just impossible to navigate complexity at high RPMs. And so hopefully that contrast helps paint the difference there.

Melissa

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(13:40) I’m thinking about, okay, so if those are level two leaders, who is a level three leader?

Ryan

(13:46) Yeah, so Alan Mulally would be that level three leader. (13:50) Okay. (13:51) Yep, so Alan Mulally just operated at a different gear, right?

(13:55) He didn’t care as much about the short term. (13:58) He cared about the long-term purpose. (14:01) I would say Satya Nadella and Microsoft is another example of one of these level three leaders.

(14:09) And he’s, you know, we could do another contrast with Satya Nadella and the person, the CEO before him, Steve Ballmer. (14:16) I would say Steve Ballmer was a level two leader. (14:18) Satya Nadella is a level three leader.

(14:21) And when you make these types of contrast, there’s a really interesting takeaway that comes from this, which is the level that the leaders operate at sets the ceiling for the organization. (14:34) And so if we want to lift or raise the ceiling of an organization, we actually have to start by elevating the leaders. (14:43) And so that’s what we see as Ford’s leadership went from Bill Ford to Alan Mulally.

(14:49) We saw, because they brought in a more elevated leader, there was a transformative impact. (14:54) We saw that same thing with Microsoft. (14:56) They replaced Steve Ballmer with Satya Nadella, and it’s just transformational growth and impact within their industry.

(15:04) So those are a couple of examples of those level three leaders.

Melissa

(15:08) Let’s talk a little bit about fear. (15:10) I think that’s a good emotion to talk about that. (15:16) So when you think about nonprofit run leaders, what’s the common or most common protective fear that you see today that’s holding leaders back?

Ryan

(15:25) Well, I think you’re spot on. (15:27) Generally it is, if a leader is held back and is operating at a lower level than that third level, there’s some sort of fear that’s going on that is holding them back. (15:37) And when I try to help leaders awaken to their fears, I dive into the topic of mindsets.

(15:45) So I’ve got a mindset assessment. (15:48) It’s actually free on my website. (15:50) And I use this when I work with leaders, and it helps them to evaluate their quality of their mindsets across four different sets of mindsets.

(15:58) And I found a consistent theme amongst the leaders that I work with. (16:04) And out of those four sets of mindsets, there’s one that 60% of leaders struggle with. (16:11) And that’s the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset.

(16:16) And to me, this is interesting because most people have kind of heard of fixed and growth mindsets. (16:21) And if I’m in a room full of, let’s say 100 leaders, and I ask them, do any of you have a fixed mindset? (16:28) None of them will raise their hand.

(16:30) Yet what I know is that at least 60% of them have a fixed mindset. (16:35) So oftentimes this is something that they’re not aware of. (16:38) And when a leader has a fixed mindset, that means that their body has a fear of looking bad and of failing.

(16:48) And that’s a natural, I’m gonna call it a natural fear for a leader to have. (16:53) But when a leader carries that fear where they don’t wanna look bad and they don’t wanna fail, what they tend to do in terms of their decision-making is they tend to only do what they know will be successful, which is generally what they’ve done in the past. (17:10) But guess what?

(17:12) What we’ve done in the past is not likely to lead us to the success that we’re seeking in the future. (17:19) And so what happens for a lot of leaders that have this fixed mindset is they hold onto the past and they’re unwilling to embrace new approaches, new strategies that ultimately will allow for the growth and the success that they’re seeking. (17:33) And so I find that that fear of looking bad or of not failing is generally at the root of a lot of leaders kind of blocks.

Melissa

(17:46) Now, what is, there’s so many questions I have in that, and how does it show up in the workplace? (17:54) So like, how does it show up for decision-making or delegation or overworking yourself or authenticity? (18:05) Authenticity in the workplace.

Ryan

(18:07) Yeah, no, really great question, right? (18:09) So it shows up in that they’re unwilling to explore new ideas. (18:13) So that means that they’re not very agile.

(18:15) It also means that generally the leader kind of feels like, I need to hoard control because they believe in themselves and they believe that if they can do it, they will be successful. (18:29) And they just don’t believe that if others do it, they’ll experience the same success. (18:35) And so they want to hoard control as a way to help them to feel kind of more stable, more secure about looking good and being successful.

(18:47) And ultimately that of course crowds out and disengages those that they work with. (18:54) And so that’s a common issue that I’m seeing in the executive teams that I work with, is the leaders like, I am working my butt off, but my team isn’t keeping up with me. (19:05) And what they don’t recognize is that the team isn’t keeping up because the leader’s not letting them, because the leader’s hoarding onto kind of control because it helps them to feel a little bit more stable in their position.

(19:20) So those are, and of course, regarding authenticity is if I’m hoarding control, I’m really not allowing my true self to shine through. (19:32) So another thing that I find is that these second level leaders, they really struggle with vulnerability. (19:41) And if you’re not willing to be vulnerable as a leader, and don’t get me wrong, this is way easier said than done.

(19:49) But if you’re not willing to be vulnerable as a leader, you’re not able to build trust and connection with the people that you lead. (19:57) And what we know from Stephen M.R. Covey’s book, The Speed of Trust, when trust goes up, speed goes up and costs go down. (20:06) When trust goes down, costs go up and speed goes down.

(20:11) And so it’s this fear of, again, looking bad that holds leaders back from being more agile, but also, as I just articulated, it prevents trust from building within the environment.

Melissa

(20:26) Now, does this show up differently for executives than it does founders?

Ryan

(20:31) Oh, good question. (20:33) So here’s what I’ve found is, I have found that founders generally have a stronger identity with the business, right? (20:45) Because they created it in a way.

(20:47) So founders, I would say, have a little bit more ego wrapped up in their business, or tend to, and therefore they have a little bit more of these self-protective fears. (21:02) So if leaders, if we’ve got a room full of CEOs and 60% of them have a fixed mindset, I just kind of imagine if we have a room of 100 founders, my guess is that 80% would have a fixed mindset. (21:17) And it just, those fears, because of the egoic identity that comes with being the creator of the business, I think that that makes their fears come out even stronger.

Melissa

(21:32) I love it. (21:32) Now let’s talk a little bit about unlocking this success mindset and moving away from fear. (21:40) So how can leaders rewrite, begin to rewrite their hidden mindset codes to become an ultimate leader?

Ryan

(21:51) Yeah, so it kind of, as I’ve alluded, is most of this mindset kind of wired operation occurs automatically and non-consciously within our body. (22:02) Most of us are not really connected to the role that our mindsets are playing in terms of how we think, learn, and behave. (22:08) And so the first step for me is always awareness.

(22:12) I need to help leaders to become aware of the quality of their mindsets and become aware of how their mindsets are impacting their leadership. (22:21) And I feel like if I could do that, that’s more than half the battle. (22:26) And most leaders honestly never get there on their own.

(22:30) They need some sort of support like myself or others to really help them awaken to that. (22:36) But when we awaken to the quality of our mindsets and we have a clear sense of where we’re at, and we’ll also get a clear sense of where we need to go, then we can employ some really personalized and targeted activities for them to upgrade their mindsets. (22:56) So some of that involves doing some really simple things.

(22:59) So one of the things that’s interesting about mindset research, they’ve found that if you could kind of watch a video, read an article or journal about or connected to, let’s just say a growth mindset, if you could do that every day for five minutes a day, what we’ll find after two weeks is significant shifts in the quality of our mindsets. (23:22) We’ll actually start to think and operate in a different way than what we did two weeks prior to that. (23:29) So a lot of people when they say, oh, I don’t know if I could change my mindsets, what I generally tell them is, are our mindsets changed through big grand activities or small little interventions?

(23:45) And they’re like, oh, it’s small little interventions, which is the case. (23:48) Mindset shifts through these small little interventions. (23:53) And so really shifting our mindsets is much more about habit building than anything else.

(23:58) So I’m never gonna say it’s easy to shift our mindsets, but what I’ve learned is it’s definitely easier than what we think it will be.

Melissa

(24:06) Now, what role does emotional awareness play in the mindset changing?

Ryan

(24:13) Yeah, so that’s foundational. (24:16) So for me, as I mentioned, that step number one is we’ve got to become aware. (24:21) And part of that awareness is not just what is my mindset, but why do I have that mindset?

(24:28) And so what I’ve learned broadly speaking is our mindsets come about because of two reasons, our life’s experience or our current culture. (24:39) So, and what’s really fascinating, and I’m doing actually a lot of research on this right now, is the more and more I work with executives, the more and we dive into their mindsets, the more and more I’m hearing them surface trauma that has occurred in their past. (24:59) And I found this super fascinating, right?

(25:02) But it doesn’t surprise me, because what I’ve learned about trauma is the more trauma we experience, the more our body becomes wired for self-protection. (25:12) And so let me give you a quick example. (25:13) I was working with a CEO, he’s also the founder of the business, and I asked him, why did you start your business?

(25:21) And his answer was to prove others wrong, right? (25:27) And it said something. (25:28) So he’s one of these, he’s one of these level two leaders who are going pedal to the metal, obtaining control, and he’s burning out himself, and he’s burning out his executive team.

(25:40) Because they’re going pedal to the metal, RPMs are high, what needs to happen is he needs to shift gears. (25:48) He needs to actually, and here’s what I’ve learned about shifting gears. (25:51) Shifting gears, right, as we mentioned, is not about pushing harder.

(25:55) It’s actually about letting go. (25:59) Right? (25:59) And so when I shift, if I’m driving a stick shift vehicle, the first step, if I’m gonna shift gears, is to pull my foot off the gas.

(26:08) Then I stick in the clutch, and then I’m able to shift gears. (26:12) The same thing goes for these leaders. (26:14) For this particular CEO I was working with, I had to help him realize, in order for you to level up, you’ve gotta loosen your need for control.

(26:28) You’re never gonna operate at a higher speed and at lower RPMs until we’re able to loosen your need for control. (26:36) Which, ultimately, there’s a fear that’s driving that. (26:39) And so that became the focus of my work with him, is to create greater space for that.

(26:45) And it was really cool to see him to start to create healthier boundaries, which allowed him to better step into that third level leadership.

Melissa

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Ryan

(27:58) Well, and he also prides himself in it, which was, you know, that’s part of it. (28:02) Like if we’re in that level too, that’s oftentimes how it is, right? (28:05) We see it as, you know, when he says to prove others wrong, I kind of cringe at that, but he was actually proud of that, right?

(28:15) Because it’s driven what he’s accomplished. (28:17) You see this with Michael Jordan, right? (28:21) What drove Michael Jordan at a foundational level was fear of being seen as not the best.

(28:30) He wasn’t driven by to be the best. (28:32) He was just driven by the fear to not be seen as the best. (28:36) And ultimately that drove him to excel in some ways.

(28:42) So fear can drive us to excel, but generally it leaves a wake of damage behind us. (28:46) And there’s not too many teammates that Michael Jordan had that would say, oh, I really liked being his teammate. (28:53) And I think it’s possible or it could have been possible for Michael Jordan to be as successful as he was and also be a great teammate.

(29:04) It just didn’t work out that way.

Melissa

(29:06) Yeah, well said. (29:06) Now, I wanna circle back to something we talked about at the beginning a little bit. (29:11) What is vertical development and why is it different from traditional leadership growth?

Ryan

(29:19) Yeah, and it’s really, this is kind of at the crux of everything we’ve been talking about. (29:23) So let me paint it this way. (29:25) I think that we have two different sides of ourselves.

(29:28) One side of ourselves, think about this as our horizontal axis. (29:31) That’s what I’m gonna call our doing side. (29:34) Our doing side is our talent, our knowledge, and our skills, okay?

(29:38) And this is the side that most of us focus on when we try to get better, right? (29:44) Think about our education systems, our athletic programs. (29:47) Most of our organizational development efforts are all about gaining knowledge and skills.

(29:52) And that’s what we call horizontal development. (29:55) But there’s another side of ourselves that we’ve been talking about. (29:58) I call it our being side.

(29:59) Our being side is the quality of our character, our mindsets, our emotional regulation abilities. (30:06) And it’s this being side that really sets leaders apart. (30:12) In fact, and so when we develop along our being side, that’s what we call vertical development.

(30:19) And let me give you a really fun example if this is okay. (30:23) So I’m gonna quiz you, Melissa. (30:25) And this comes from some research that the New York Times did a couple of months ago.

(30:29) And so they went and they asked people, where’s the first place you go for medical advice and support? (30:37) What do you think their answer was? (30:38) Their doctor.

(30:40) It wasn’t their doctor. (30:41) It was ChatGPT. (30:44) So then, okay, they say ChatGPT is where they primarily go first.

(30:48) And then they asked them why. (30:50) Do you have any guesses on what the number one answer was for why? (30:54) I mean, there’s multiple answers, but what was the most frequent answer?

Melissa

(30:57) It was a quick search. (30:58) They didn’t have to make an appointment. (31:00) It was the easiest thing to do of all the choices.

Ryan

(31:03) Good, so that was a high answer, but it wasn’t the highest. (31:07) The number one answer for why people go to ChatGPT before their doctor is because they say, ChatGPT listens to me, right? (31:20) So this is super fascinating, because what we know is that doctors are really developed along their doing side.

(31:26) But the skill or the ability, I’m gonna call it the capacity to listen in a high stress environment is not about our doing side. (31:37) That’s about our being side. (31:39) And so what we know is that most doctors are really high on their doing side, but also really low on their being side.

(31:46) And that’s affecting how patients interact with them. (31:52) And we’re now, people are trusting, even though ChatGPT isn’t as good as our doctors are, at least yet, they’re still trusting ChatGPT more because ChatGPT seems to bring some semblance of a being side.

Melissa

(32:06) And yeah, I’m thinking like, they probably trust ChatGPT more than their doctor too.

Ryan

(32:12) And why?

Melissa

(32:12) Because they’re listening, right?

Ryan

(32:14) They’re listening, yeah, yeah.

Melissa

(32:16) So what happens when somebody develops vertically? (32:21) Like what is the output of a leader developing themselves vertically?

Ryan

(32:26) Well, there’s a lot of changes that occur when we develop vertically, right? (32:29) We talked about some of these. (32:31) We see at a more elevated level.

(32:36) We develop a greater capacity to control our emotions, to rise above our fears. (32:42) We have a wider window of tolerance. (32:44) And when we have that wider window of tolerance, we’re able to step in and navigate complexity more effectively.

(32:52) And so maybe if I was to just summarize all of that up, a simple way to do that, which is it’s more complex than this, but a simple way is people lower on their being side are generally much more reactive. (33:05) People higher on their being side are have the capacity to be much more intentionally responsive, right? (33:13) So a really quick example of this might be how do most people respond to constructive criticism?

(33:21) They get defensive, right? (33:25) That’s just a signal of a low being side altitude because they see constructive criticism as an attack. (33:35) And if we see it as an attack, of course we’re gonna get defensive.

(33:38) And that’s generally a knee jerk, self-protective reaction. (33:43) But somebody who is more elevated on along their being side, they won’t react. (33:48) They will actually create space to sit with that constructive criticism.

(33:52) Now that doesn’t mean that they have to agree with it, but they create the space to sit with it. (33:58) And then, huh, is there something here that I could benefit from? (34:04) And hopefully just in me sharing that example, you get a sense that those people that are more elevated, their body operates at a completely different gear or speed than those who are reactive.

(34:19) And so that’s hopefully just, you know, again, a very simplistic way of thinking about our altitude along our being side. (34:27) How reactive am I, particularly in kind of stressful or difficult situations?

Melissa

(34:33) I wanna talk about value creating and what does being a true value creator look like in real life?

Ryan

(34:41) And this is really what sets apart these vertically developed people, right? (34:45) So if we think about this continuum from low to high, low is when we’re self-protective, high is when we’re value creating. (34:52) And what that means is when I respond to constructive criticism by being reactive, what I’m doing is I’m prioritizing, easing my negative emotions in the short term.

(35:05) So it helps me feel better in the short term, but it actually holds me back from learning and growth in the longterm. (35:12) Okay, so that’s the self-protective side of things. (35:15) The value creating side of things is when we become willing to step into short-term discomfort for long-term value creation.

(35:27) And that’s what really sets apart these really great leaders that I identified earlier, like Satya Nadella, Alan Mulally, even Mary Barra at GM is another example. (35:36) These are leaders that seem to have the capacity to sit with short-term discomfort to make decisions that will lead to long-term value creation. (35:48) And to me, what that signifies is just a mature and sophisticated person and leader.

(35:57) And I would maybe just say something I aspire to be, right? (36:01) Even though I’m saying these things, like I understand it, but it’s easier to say than to do. (36:07) And so this is part of my own journey as well to try to elevate myself so I could be more of that type of person.

(36:14) And I know if I can upgrade my internal operating system in the ways that we’ve talked about, what I’m doing is I’m elevating my being. (36:24) And guess what? (36:25) I take my being to every situation that I’m in, right?

(36:29) I take it to this conversation. (36:31) I take it to my interaction with my wife. (36:33) I take that to my interactions with my kids, with my students as I teach them, and with my executives when I consult with them.

(36:41) And so if we can elevate our being, it’s more than just business. (36:46) It’s our life. (36:48) It’s our relationships.

(36:49) And I think that’s one of the things that I’ve come to love about doing work with executives. (36:54) I’ll work with executives for a period of time. (36:57) And then if I’ve got a break, and let’s say I come back six months later, and I’ll ask them, how has this impacted you?

(37:04) Initially, this surprised me, but now I expect it. (37:07) Their answer generally is where they start talking about the impact it’s had on their family. (37:15) And I love that.

(37:16) If we’re gonna have an impact on anything, let’s have it on our family. (37:20) But I also think the family is the place where executives feel most safe to try on a new version of themselves. (37:30) And that’s why it kind of shows up there first, and then when they gain trust, like, oh, this is actually good, then that starts to bleed over into how they operate as a leader within their businesses.

(37:42) And so it’s just, I found this work, this vertical development work, to be both meaningful and transformational.

Melissa

(37:51) Yeah, because when you’re developing not just your personal side, but you’re doing both personal and professional, it leads to a much happier life. (38:00) If our work’s just going well, but our personal life isn’t going great, we’re not necessarily living in our joy and our happiness, but when we work on one, it can positively affect the other. (38:12) I love that.

(38:13) So what’s one step leaders can take today, a simple step or a tip that they can do to start activating and leveraging their being side more?

Ryan

(38:24) So shameless self-promotion. (38:25) Buy my latest book, I guess, right? (38:28) Buy, my latest book is Becoming Better, the Groundbreaking Science of Personal Transformation.

(38:32) And it goes into all of what we’ve talked about. (38:35) And it also gives some clear next steps that we could take. (38:39) And there’s a variety of those.

(38:40) So what I’ve learned is that the next steps for one person aren’t and shouldn’t be the next steps for another person. (38:49) And so that’s where it’s really hard for me to say, oh, everybody go do this, right? (38:55) Is because everybody has their own fears, their own insecurities.

(38:59) And ultimately, if they want to vertically develop, they’ve got to get at the root of those things for themselves. (39:06) And so that’s why I like pointing people to the book because it gives them that context. (39:10) And it also gives them, allows for a little bit more personalized direction than what we can give in just a couple of minutes.

Melissa

(39:16) That’s great. (39:17) Get his book. (39:18) Thank you so much for being here today, Dr. Ryan. (39:22) I want to get any final thoughts or any tips you want to leave with our listeners today. (39:28) And then share the best way to connect with you and learn more about the good work you’re doing.

Ryan

(39:34) Yeah, I appreciate it. (39:36) So there was a part right in our discussion where we brought up the concept of trauma and how it can impact leaders. (39:44) And to me, I found this space to be really meaningful to focus on partly because I’ve been on my own trauma healing journey.

(39:51) But what I’ve learned at a foundational level when we talk about vertical development is ultimately it’s about healing our minds, our bodies, and our hearts. (40:01) Hurt leaders, hurt others. (40:03) Heal leaders, lead others.

(40:06) And so ultimately, I hope that this opens the door for anybody listening to step into a greater level of healing because that’s what it is at a foundational level. (40:17) And to me, that’s really meaningful. (40:19) And so if you want more of that or more resources for me in that regard, I’ve got my website, ryangotfordson.com.

(40:26) Also would love to connect with you on social media. (40:28) I’m most active on LinkedIn, and so would love to connect with anybody there.

Melissa

(40:32) That’s great. (40:33) Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge today. (40:36) So many questions I had as we were talking.

(40:39) So much good insight. (40:40) Thank you so much for being here today. (40:42) That’s the Executive Connect podcast.