In this episode of Executive Connect, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Jennifer Little-Fleck, a molecular biology expert who translates complex genomic science into practical insights for leadership, communication, and personal performance.

Jennifer introduces the idea of “unpatched code” and explains why she believes generalized health and performance advice can miss important individual differences. She discusses how genomic information may provide additional context around stress response, information processing, recovery, hormones, sleep patterns, medication response, and other aspects of everyday performance.

The conversation also covers pharmacogenomics, biological sensitivity, different thinking styles, burnout, circadian rhythms, communication, and why two high performers may require completely different approaches to recovery and productivity.

Rather than treating genetic information as destiny, Jennifer encourages leaders to use it as another source of self-awareness—one that can help them ask better questions, better understand their own patterns, and recognize that the people around them may operate very differently.

Chapters:

(0:25) Introducing executive “unpatched code”

(2:09) Why one-size-fits-all advice falls short

(5:59) Why executives may care about genomics

(9:02) How biological differences can shape thinking

(12:54) Pharmacogenomics and medication response

(25:40) Reframing genetic testing as self-awareness

(32:02) Stress sensitivity and biological recovery

(39:21) Sleep, circadian rhythm, and performance

(46:15) Why burnout can look different for everyone

(52:23) AI, genomics, and practical interpretation

Jennifer

(0:00) Imagine my surprise when I learned that I was a factor V Leiden carrier and that if I had ever taken estrogen based birth control, which I never did, that I would have had a 300% increase in the risk of blood clots. (0:17) HRT, it is very much the same thing because you’re basically introducing estrogen directly into the system.

Melissa

(0:25) Executives spend an enormous amount of time upgrading their business, new technologies, new strategies, new systems, even new talent. (0:36) But what if one of the biggest performance bottlenecks is not inside the company? (0:42) What if it’s inside the actual leader?

(0:45) Today’s guest believes high performers are operating with what she calls unpatched code by biological and genetic patterns that may influence how they respond to stress, process information, recover, focus, and sustain energy. (1:03) Jennifer Littlefleck has spent decades translating complex molecular science into practical insights people can actually understand and use. (1:14) Today we’re exploring what happens when leaders meet biology, why the same performance advice does not work equally well for everyone, and how greater awareness of our individual wiring may help leaders operate with more clarity, resilience, and intention.

(1:32) Welcome, Jennifer.

Jennifer

(1:34) Thank you so much, Melissa, for having me on today. (1:37) I am so excited to share some things and I believe create some massive aha moments for your audience today.

Melissa

(1:47) I agree. (1:48) Now, when you use the phrase executive unpatched code, my brain first thought when I read it as an engineer and a person that works with code, we’re talking code. (2:04) Talk to us a little bit about what executive unpatched code is and what does it mean to them?

Jennifer

(2:09) Well, it means that most executive advice, especially where health is concerned, is working off of somebody else’s defaults. (2:20) What we know from looking at individual biology is that literally no two people, in fact, let me give you a piece of data because I know you guys like data. (2:35) The odds of two people sharing the same exact genetic code is one in 14.5 quintillion among non-family members. (2:48) Now, among family members, I want to say it’s like one in 12 quintillion. (2:53) I mean, it’s still astronomical, but that means real differences in how you treat or how you approach a particular piece of wiring or program that’s not quite working correctly, right? (3:14) We have to build based on what’s in front of us and not what the average solution is to that particular issue.

Melissa

(3:24) No, and I think we don’t even realize that, and I would go so far to say that we don’t even realize that these patterns need to be fixed. (3:36) I think it’s information we need to understand first, so let’s unpack it one more step further. (3:43) How can someone’s biology show up in their work without them even realizing it?

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(4:01) Don’t just watch, act.

Jennifer

(4:03) So many ways, and let’s put it this way. (4:07) Probably in your life, Melissa, you know, before you became this successful, all put together person you are today, at some point, somebody said to you, well, so why can’t you just do this like everyone else? (4:22) Or why can’t you be like this?

(4:24) And in leadership, that’s how we realize we’re leaders, right? (4:31) Because we don’t do things like everyone else. (4:33) If we did, we would just be a really good worker bee, and we need worker bees.

(4:40) But for some of us, we hear that. (4:43) We don’t conform, you know, all the things that you have heard. (4:49) And what you’re really hearing is your wiring is a little bit different than everyone else’s.

(4:58) Likely, you are a fast thinker. (5:01) Likely, you’re a pattern observer. (5:04) These are neurochemical signatures that are genetic.

(5:11) So when we look at a genome, entirety of all of somebody’s genes, we can see tendencies in your neurochemical wiring that predicts tendencies. (5:28) Now, is it going to be 100% all the time? (5:31) No.

(5:32) Environment still plays a large part, around 40%. (5:36) Yes. (5:39) If you’re in your mind right now thinking, wait, you mean my personality is genetic?

(5:44) Yeah. (5:45) About 60 to 65% of your personality is largely genetic, and that means that it’s neurochemical wiring. (5:56) So let’s back up a second.

(5:59) Why should a busy executive care about genetic information right now? (6:05) You know, it’s kind of a riff off your initial question. (6:10) And I want to put this in the frame that the very first human genome took 13 years and almost $3 billion to sequence.

(6:25) Right now, that information we can get for less than you’re spending on Starbucks in six months, and I can get it for you in about four weeks. (6:40) That is how much the technology has changed, but it doesn’t just stop there. (6:46) Back when the Human Genome Project started, which is what I’m talking about, I was but a young lass in high school, and I thought this was amazing.

(6:57) And I thought, I want to understand how my body works, because I was not understanding why my mind works differently than everyone else. (7:08) Why am I always in trouble when I’m just trying to solve problems? (7:13) Why is my actual physical body, why does it work differently than everyone else?

(7:19) And I just thought, oh my gosh, well, I want to be part of this human genome thing, because I want to understand me. (7:26) And when I was in college getting my degree in molecular biology, they finished sequencing the entire human genome. (7:35) And the thing that they discovered was, it was a blueprint.

(7:39) It didn’t hold all of the mysteries to what is happening on everybody’s every day. (7:47) And that’s where functional genomics comes into play. (7:50) There is no specific gene for cancer.

(7:54) There’s no a gene for autoimmune disease, rheumatoid arthritis. (8:00) It is a system of how particular genes work together. (8:05) And that is what genomics is.

(8:08) So as like this weird science fiction in my mind, over the decades, the technology grew to where it is today that we can actually find out somebody’s entire genome, understand what drives their thinking, what drives their hormones, what drives whether or not they’re going to suffer the same issues as their parents or be completely different, how much the environment plays into all of this. (8:43) We now know that. (8:45) There’s a map.

(8:46) And your audience would be shocked to find out how much that they can learn about themselves. (8:56) So you asked me about why, what are some things that they can understand? (9:02) Well, going back to your example, there’s a gene called COMT, C-O-M-T.

(9:09) And it stands for, and you don’t have to remember this ever, catecholamine O-methyltransferase. (9:17) And what COMT does is a lot. (9:20) It’s one of those primary marker genes that we look at to kind of understand where your personality lies and how it’s going to affect the rest of your body.

(9:31) Because what COMT does is decides how quickly your mind clears your used up neurochemicals and how well you metabolize and get rid of estrogen. (9:46) And that matters for everyone because even men make and need estrogen in their system. (9:55) And almost no men test their estrogen levels.

(9:59) They’ll start testing their testosterone levels for sure, but most do not test their estrogen levels. (10:05) And it’s this ratio of testosterone to estrogen that matters. (10:11) So think about this.

(10:12) If you’re a fast clear of neurochemicals, a fast COMT, you move on to things like this. (10:21) But if you’re a slow clear of neurochemicals, you tend to fall into a group that we call ruminators. (10:33) We overthink things.

(10:36) And when I say we, I mean the general. (10:39) Ruminators overthink things and they belabor points. (10:43) And whether you’re a fast COMT or a slow COMT, it doesn’t matter.

(10:48) It’s not good or bad in terms of the grand scheme of things. (10:53) But it does shape how your personality shows up. (10:58) And if you are feeling badly because you are constantly on to the next thing, you’re often labeled ADHD or you are labeled a jitterbug or can’t sit still or can’t finish a thought.

(11:18) Whereas a ruminator, because you have this slow clearance, you’re that super deep dive in the detail, weeds, weeds, weeds person that, trust me, we all need in our lives. (11:31) But you’re also that person that’s not going to be able to let things go to move on from negative events very easily.

Melissa

(11:39) Yeah. (11:40) And I think kind of to your point there, I think a lot of the listeners on this podcast are high performers. (11:48) A lot of the people in my ecosystem are as well.

(11:51) And I think, and I’m a high performer. (11:53) And a lot of times we solve biological challenges with willpower and that comes across in very different ways. (12:02) And then when I think about genetics, a lot of things that I’ve been seeing people are focusing on are really the inherited diseases that, you know, maybe come in their life, but you focus more on performance, which I love because I think a lot of times, if we understand, you know, what we’re working with and what we have, what tools we have at our capacity, we can use them better.

(12:34) We understand it. (12:35) And so what are we missing with, you know, everyday performance and how we function and maybe just in simple terms that, you know, maybe traditional genetic testing misses.

Jennifer

(12:54) Right. (12:54) So a lot of traditional genetic testing, like your 23andMe’s of the world ancestry, you know, they look at very different things, right? (13:01) So this is, this is not that.

(13:04) This is also not the whole like designer babies things, you know, this is, this is not that. (13:12) Genomics that can help you right now, like right, right now are things like pharmacogenomics. (13:19) So understanding how your body reacts with medications.

(13:25) That’s a, that’s a huge, simple one. (13:29) Are the medications or supplements you’re taking biologically compatible with you? (13:36) And more than 90% of people who take a pharmacogenomics test learn something very, very valuable about what they can and can’t take.

(13:49) So for example, for the women in the group, for example, this is a huge one. (13:54) You know, the FDA just lifted the black box warning on HRT, which is amazing because hormone replacement therapy is a game changer and a lifesaver for a lot of women. (14:08) However, you should know before you do that, whether or not you’re a factor five carrier.

(14:18) Almost no one does the type of pharmacogenomic testing up front that would tell you that. (14:25) And a lot of women find out the hard way. (14:28) Factor five Leiden determines your propensity for clotting, clotting risks.

(14:35) So imagine my surprise when these tests started becoming available, right? (14:42) You know, because I’ve probably taken, I don’t know, 25 genomic tests in my life. (14:47) I like to test everybody’s tests and see what they report on and how accurate they are and all that kind of stuff.

(14:54) But when I first started doing this, imagine my surprise when I learned that I was a factor five Leiden carrier and that if I had ever taken estrogen based birth control, which I never did, that I would have had a 300% increase in the risk of blood clots. (15:16) HRT, it is very much the same thing because you’re basically introducing estrogen directly into the system. (15:26) So knowing this, I cannot ever take traditional HRT systemic therapy, right?

(15:32) I have to do other things, but I’m only a carrier. (15:35) So that means that, um, so we all, we all get two alleles. (15:40) So every gene we inherit, we get two copies, one from our mother and one from our father.

(15:46) So I got one copy from my mother. (15:50) Now there’s some people who get two copies, women who have two copies of this, the risk increases to 8,000%. (16:03) So yeah, it’s an, it’s a super easy win.

(16:07) So as we are aging and trying to understand how to work with our aging bodies differently, uh, knowing that we’re probably going to start taking medications we never did before, looking into supplements, you know, that we’ve never needed before, having that understanding of the, your biological compatibility with common medications is huge. (16:33) So that’s one example. (16:37) Here’s the other thing.

(16:38) We all are probably familiar with Angelina Jolie and her issue with being, uh, diagnosed as a positive BRCA1 gene carrier. (16:53) And because of that, she decided, you know, that for her, and mind you, you know, her, her mother passed away from a hormonal cancer, that for her, removing her breasts was like the most prudent decision to avoid some sort of cancer, right? (17:12) Well, here’s the thing.

(17:15) BRCA1, it doesn’t, it’s not a cancer gene. (17:18) In fact, what it is, is it helps your body remove cancers. (17:25) And it’s actually the third kind of like down the line thing that you have to look at.

(17:32) The first thing you need to look at is how much hormone do you make? (17:37) How much of it gets converted to estrogen? (17:40) How well do you clear that estrogen?

(17:43) Remember earlier, we were talking about that gene called COMPT that clears out your neurotransmitters also helps to clear out estrogen. (17:54) Now, if we take care of the two upstream things, we’re not, uh, we don’t have to be too worried about what our BRCA status is because we’ve kept the clearance up. (18:06) We haven’t pulled up this massive bank of used up estrogen that’s just sitting around and transforming ourselves.

(18:14) So again, there’s like things that we can learn about ourselves. (18:18) We could learn this on day one of our birth. (18:21) And we know this information our whole entire lives that we have this propensity to accumulate estrogen and leave ourselves open to disease.

(18:33) Now for men, I don’t want to leave them out here because this is really important. (18:40) Nearly every male that I work with, believe it or not, are asking me the same questions about hormones that women are. (18:50) And in leadership, this is a common problem that I’m seeing more and more, which is they’re the leader.

(19:00) They are very secure in and of themselves, their beliefs, their direction, build the team that they’ve built underneath them. (19:10) But quietly inside, they are not feeling as sure of themselves anymore. (19:17) Maybe they’re starting to wonder if they have a touch of depression.

(19:23) They don’t want to talk to anybody about it because, you know, it’s scary to talk about that kind of stuff. (19:32) But what most men and physicians who treat men fail to recognize is that the range of testosterone in which men feel their best is actually pretty high. (19:49) The higher end of the range.

(19:55) And when we, I think, I want to say men lose testosterone naturally at a rate of like one to two percent yearly after I want to say age like 35. (20:06) It might even be 30. (20:09) This starts to fall off and men start to feel this.

(20:15) And it feels like depression to them. (20:18) But really what it is, is it’s slowly losing hormone, just like in women with estrogen. (20:25) Now, if you’re done with the family, you know, people do HRT.

(20:31) If you’re still trying to build a family, there are other things you can do. (20:35) You should not do TRT because TRT therapy reduces your ability to conceive. (20:43) So there are other things that you can do.

(20:45) But the real problem here, Melissa, is that most physicians, most Western physicians, if you’re in the 300s range, they could still consider that normal. (20:59) And unfortunately, men feel horribly depressed in that range already. (21:06) It’s actually below 500 when we’re talking about just total testosterone.

(21:12) And free is different, a different number, but we’re just talking total testosterone here. (21:18) And they won’t act until it’s below 300. (21:22) And at that point, you have a lot of people who are already thinking very bad thoughts, suicidal even potentially.

(21:33) Now, what can genomics tell us to head that off? (21:38) Well, genomics can tell us, like I said earlier, what do we look at first? (21:44) How much hormone do you naturally make?

(21:46) What do you convert it into? (21:49) And how well do you clear it? (21:52) And in men, over 50% of the men that I work with, lo and behold, they do not naturally make a lot of hormone to begin with.

(22:04) So imagine what happens when now we’re in our 40s, 50s, that natural drop-off has occurred, and they are feeling really awful. (22:17) And yet they go to the doctor, and they’re told, oh, well, you’re within range. (22:22) So what do they do?

(22:24) So it’s an issue with men and women. (22:27) But my point is that genomic testing tells us our pathways from the moment that we’re born, and we can get ahead of these things very easily. (22:38) But almost no one knows that you can have this information.

(22:44) It’s available. (22:45) You can have it within a couple of weeks with a test, and it is so affordable. (22:52) Like even 10 years ago, genomic testing was still like $100,000 for an individual.

(23:00) In these days, it’s less than $1,000. (23:05) It’s insane.

Melissa

(23:07) Yeah. (23:07) And I think the interesting part, I would agree, because I’ve had my, I’ve had tests done, and they were tens of thousands of dollars. (23:15) And so I would agree with that.

(23:17) I also think the interesting part when I had gotten information for myself is just things like sleep, right? (23:26) Something really simple like sleep. (23:28) I was sleeping the right way, but my husband was not, right?

(23:33) He was sleeping the wrong times, the wrong numbers of hours. (23:36) You know, I needed more sleep. (23:38) He needed less sleep.

(23:39) It was just when he was sleeping. (23:40) And I think the interesting part too is I have had a lot of inconsistent results in the medical field, or not clarity on how things are fixed, or let’s solve it with a drug. (23:54) But when people hear the word genetics, they, at least I did, assumed that maybe this was just something that I was going to have to, like my experience going to the doctor, that the outcomes are predetermined and I can’t do anything to fix it.

(24:12) So they don’t get it because they don’t want to know. (24:14) Maybe I’m predisposed. (24:15) That’s the word I was looking for, predisposed to certain things.

(24:18) And so it’s almost like they don’t want the information because they don’t want to know what they’re predisposed to. (24:25) So, talk to me a little bit about how you help people understand what they’re predisposed to and how they can really look at their genetic destiny as a positive. (24:38) Like in my case, some of the stuff that I found in my report, like I was able to take on more food than some of my peers were able to.

(24:48) So I didn’t gain weight when I ate a certain way where they gained weight when they ate carbs, too many carbs or different things. (24:55) So I was kind of eating to the right lifestyle for myself when some of my peers were not, and they were either, you know, experiencing worse or better symptoms. (25:07) So talk to me a little bit about what that looks like.

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Jennifer

(25:40) So that is a wonderful segue. (25:43) And all right, we today, everybody listening, we are going to reframe genomic testing from something that we do after something breaks to something that we do for fun to learn about how our body works. (26:00) Okay.

(26:00) So that’s really the big reframe. (26:03) Unfortunately, that’s all people think about. (26:06) Oh, I only need genomic testing after something goes wrong.

(26:10) No, no, no, no. (26:11) This is fun information. (26:15) Are you going to learn things that are going to make you potentially change some of the things that you do?

(26:22) Yeah, but that’s a good thing because now you have direction and you’re not throwing darts in the dark anymore. (26:32) Melissa, probably about 30% of the people that I talk with, that is exactly how they start a conversation with me. (26:40) I’m not sure I want to know.

(26:41) Okay. (26:43) And to that, I say, I totally get it, but we are going to learn something so fun about you that I would hate for you to miss out on it.

Melissa

(26:55) Because- What about this? (26:58) Also reframing it, not to interrupt here, but what about reframing it? (27:01) What if I were to tell you where you can get your next million dollars?

(27:08) Would you want to know how to go about from nothing to a million? (27:11) Would you listen to me? (27:12) Because really our health is our wealth.

(27:15) And the sooner we start thinking about when our health is great, we will have more wealth by doing nothing more than better working through stress, having the energy, being more there for our families, being more there for our jobs. (27:32) And so I think it’s the reframe, teaching people how to reframe it to your point.

Jennifer

(27:36) Yeah, a hundred percent. (27:38) And there’s a whole bunch of different ways that we can do that, Melissa. (27:41) Yeah.

(27:42) In your world, do you want to know how to make a million dollars? (27:47) Do you want to know, or a hundred million? (27:50) But think about it for you.

(27:52) What is something that you figured out about yourself as an adult that, man, would have been super helpful when you were 15?

Melissa

(28:03) Is that a question for me? (28:06) I think one of the things in my feedback of, I’ll give you an example. (28:12) So in my doctor during 2020, during the pandemic is like, you need to take zinc and D and I, there was one other thing they were having me take because to protect myself from getting COVID.

(28:29) So they prescribed me again, this was a naturopathic doctor had me on different supplements. (28:36) Well, what I found at the same time, I had my, my genes read inside the report. (28:45) I produce naturally high levels of zinc and there were some other things and they’re just naturally in my DNA.

(28:54) So basically I was quadrupling the levels of these things based on what my doctor told me. (29:02) Cause Hey, everybody should be taking, cause you’re exactly like me and you need zinc and I need zinc and zinc for everyone. (29:08) And so it actually negative, negatively affected me.

(29:14) And so I’m so glad I had read my genes that I had all these little pieces of information that told me what I should and should not do. (29:23) Now, one of the things the doctor said for me, take D he was right on. (29:28) Cause I had low levels of D being fair skinned and all those other things.

(29:33) And so so half of his advice was good. (29:38) Half of his advice was bad, but I had the report on my genes. (29:43) So I knew where to go.

Jennifer

(29:45) So there you go. (29:47) Let’s say that you’re somebody listening right now who has always had GI issues. (29:54) Like no matter what you do, maybe from the time that you were small, you had maybe constipation issues.

(30:01) When you eat, ate certain foods, you just always noticed that foods that were supposedly really healthy for you, like broccoli and Brussels sprouts and all that kind of stuff. (30:12) Nah, makes you feel sick. (30:14) Uh, bananas, everybody knows bananas are nature’s perfect food.

(30:20) Not you makes you feel sick. (30:22) Well, then you get your genomics done and you find out that you are among the 40% of the population that is missing a key gene in your gut that helps to detoxify anything you eat. (30:42) Okay.

(30:43) And primarily what upsets you in people who are missing this gene are cruciferous vegetables, but you, what are you talking about? (30:54) That’s what we’re told to eat. (30:56) That’s the healthy way of eating, but not for you.

(30:59) No, because now you understand your genomics. (31:03) You don’t, you don’t have the bad version of that gene. (31:06) You’re missing it completely.

(31:08) 40% of your audience listening to this right now, I promise you that is the case. (31:16) And that’s a main reason why they bloat and they have no idea why.

Melissa

(31:20) And what do we do? (31:22) So what happens? (31:23) We go to the doctor, like the older we get, the more we suffer, right?

(31:27) Bloating, you know, constipation, then we take things and it’s the other direction. (31:32) And so we go to the doctor and we get these prescriptions to either figure it out, figure it out, figure it out. (31:39) 10 years later, we’re still in the same place or worse people have, you know, colon cancer or other things that come about from not, you know, not treating their body the right way.

(31:49) And I’ve seen it over and over, you know, and then you throw on top of that stress and pressure and, you know, high functioning, traveling people that are eating and eating, and it just kind of compounds, right?

Jennifer

(32:02) It absolutely compounds. (32:05) So when I work with people, one of the things that we look at first actually is their mood and behavior genes. (32:13) And the reason that we do that is because if you understand how your neurotransmitters are set, it also speaks to the way that the rest of your physical body is going to react to stress and situations, right?

(32:31) So the first thing that we look at is sensitivity. (32:35) How sensitive are you? (32:37) In other words, how quickly does your fight or flight response kick in?

(32:41) And the second thing we look at is what we talked about earlier, which is clearance. (32:45) So once all that happens, how quickly can you clear it? (32:51) Not only does that speak to how your mind works, it speaks to how the rest of your body works.

(32:59) So let me tell you a quick story. (33:02) There’s a pediatrician and slash psychologist, Dr. Boyce, who about 25 years ago wanted to understand why is it that two children can grow up in the same exact household with the same parents, have the same rules, go to the same school, be afforded all of the same privileges, and yet one kid just thrives in life and the other kid doesn’t. (33:39) Failure to thrive.

(33:40) But not only failure to thrive, but is just plagued with sicknesses and just inability to recover just from the simplest things. (33:54) Whereas this other child, always healthy. (33:57) So what are the genomics in that?

(33:59) Because both kids are a mixture of both parents. (34:03) And what he found was, and the reason that he took this upon himself was because this was his life. (34:12) He felt blessed and privileged.

(34:15) He had a pretty relatively easy time growing up. (34:20) He became a successful pediatrician. (34:23) He went back and got his psychology degree, but yet he had a younger sister who was plagued with mental health issues.

(34:33) She was just always severely ill. (34:36) And he was seeing this play out in his practice as well with kids and families. (34:43) And what he realized is that how your autonomic nervous system is genetically programmed determines the biological output of the body.

(34:57) So much so that people with highly reactive autonomic nervous systems, they literally have a higher ear temperature than other kids, because their prefrontal cortex is constantly over activated because they’re going into fight or flight so much more often that the blood flow is so much more prevalent here. (35:25) And they actually, it’s actually their right ear. (35:27) They have higher right ear temperatures because that’s where the carotid artery goes right up into the prefrontal cortex.

(35:34) And so what we learned from that initially was when we’re looking at how people show up, how they lead can largely be determined by their biological sensitivity and then how quickly they clear it. (35:52) So that ends up playing out for, I’ve seen it everywhere, predicting leadership, predicting lack of leadership, and then what kind of leaders you become. (36:05) But here’s the really important point that I want people to walk away with.

(36:11) When you understand how you’re wired, you start to realize that how you show up in the world is how you were programmed to and to stop blaming yourself for not being like your brother or your sister or your colleague sitting next to you or that other person that you so admire.

Melissa

(36:38) Yeah. (36:39) And I think the one thing I love that you said that because I think it took me some time, you know, I would say earlier in my career, I praise my ability to handle stress, but I didn’t realize that my body was absorbing some of the costs of high stress. (36:58) And so learning how to connect my biological stress patterns with my executive behaviors really equal my, like my long-term performance.

(37:11) So I want to talk a little bit about, you know, high functioning executives are constantly expected to sustain energy via, you know, days, via flights. (37:26) They need to focus deeply because they’re going from one meeting to the next. (37:30) They got to process complexity.

(37:32) If you’re a CEO of a company or, you know, you’re moving from technology discussions to HR discussions to operation discussions, you’re just code-switching all the time. (37:41) You’re making decisions. (37:43) And so your body’s being, you know, taxed constantly with all that.

(37:49) So how might biological differences influence those abilities? (37:57) And maybe the kind of the second piece of that, you know, like, like it is, you know, I know I perform best in the day, right? (38:06) And my husband performs best at night and we function around where our peak function is.

(38:13) We know that information because we’ve done DNA work, right? (38:17) But if you’re a night or an afternoon functioning person, and you got to get up in the morning and run leadership meetings that are decision-making meetings, like my husband’s not on his A-game at 5 a.m. Like I’m ready to go early mornings, right? (38:35) And so I want to talk a little bit about understanding this for better functionality and people’s day-to-day.

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Jennifer

(39:21) Yeah, so you’re correct. (39:22) I mean, through genetic testing, we can absolutely understand your prevalence for being the morning lark or the night owl. (39:32) Now, what is interesting is you can reprogram either way, like if you need to, right?

(39:38) It’s just about shifting things. (39:41) But part of it is also because what we’re really looking at is your programmed circadian rhythm. (39:49) And another part of that though, is how quickly your cortisol resets.

(39:55) Because that’s what, that’s actually what’s happening. (39:57) That’s what’s driving your circadian rhythm. (40:00) And so some people, you know, their cortisol resets, but for some people, the clearance of the cortisol is not as quick.

(40:11) So it recirculates. (40:14) And when that happens, you are somebody who wakes up, you know, very, very agitated. (40:26) They need that time for that clearance to still happen and it pushes them more towards being more effective in the afternoon, right?

(40:34) Once things settle down. (40:36) So there are things that we can do to help that. (40:39) There are, it’s very specific supplementation because typically what you’re missing are co-factors.

(40:46) So you talked earlier about zinc and you’re, obviously your body uses zinc very judiciously. (40:56) So you don’t need a ton of it in your system. (41:01) Zinc transporter genes are something that we absolutely look at.

(41:05) They’re very important to understand because if you are a poor transporter, that affects a lot of downstream things. (41:14) But I want to back up a little bit because you talked about being a CEO, beating in leadership positions, having to be a code switcher and going on and off. (41:27) And the ability to do that effectively is a hundred percent based on your genetics.

(41:39) My mentor, I have a cognitive learning neuroscientist mentor of mine that I still work with and collaborate on, Dr. Kiran Omani. (41:50) And when he was first mentoring me, he used to tell me all the time that there is no such thing as an effective multitasker, that we always risk losing some sort of clarity. (42:04) And I believed that until I really started diving into the genetics of people who do that really, really well.

(42:16) And there are people that can do that really, really well. (42:21) And the reason that they can do that is because when we talk about genomics, we talk about systems. (42:32) And I want you to keep this in mind.

(42:36) When we think about an individual contributor in a department, we look at them for their very specific skill set. (42:46) But we don’t often look at, we’re not, when we want an overall look at how the company is doing, we don’t look at individual contributors. (42:54) We look at departments, right?

(42:56) So that’s groups of individual contributors. (42:58) So that’s why we look at groups of genes, because they all influence each other, because they all have these different skill sets. (43:05) And when you put them all together, they produce some amazing things.

(43:11) So when you have somebody who has the ability from a gene called BDNF to take in new information and immediately apply it to something that they already know, that gives people the ability of what we call high neuroplasticity. (43:34) That person can make something out of new, many somethings new out of one new piece of information, because they can take that and they’ll be like, oh my gosh, I can apply that here, here, here, here, and here. (43:49) Okay, now they’ve made all of these new neural networks that didn’t exist before from one piece of information.

(43:56) But wait, there’s more. (43:59) Not only does this person have the highest level of BDNF receptors in their brain, they also have the ability to quick, they have fast copt. (44:11) So they can quickly clear neurotransmitters and they’re on to the next thing.

(44:16) But here’s the other thing. (44:18) They also have the highest density of dopamine receptors in the brain. (44:26) So guess what?

(44:27) It takes very little for them to get excited and be able to see in their mind the possibilities of what could be. (44:37) All right. (44:38) And then on top of that, they have a very fast MAOA gene, monoamine oxidase.

(44:46) This means that once the dopamine hits, it doesn’t stick for long. (44:53) They have high density receptors, but they don’t get to feel that super dopamine hit for very long. (45:00) On top of that, the copt takes it away very quickly.

(45:02) So they can move on to the next thing very quickly. (45:06) And those are your super multitaskers and they exist. (45:14) They exist.

(45:16) There are such things of people who can super multitask and those are CEOs and founders who do amazing things. (45:26) And everybody’s like, I don’t understand how you do all that.

Melissa

(45:31) Right. (45:32) Yeah. (45:32) So, so, so I know we’re getting close on time here.

(45:36) We we’ve only unpacked half of this, but I’m curious. (45:38) So, you know, simply speaking, what is the information that is most useful for executives to begin with? (45:47) Because there’s a lot of pieces of this.

(45:49) Like if you were, you know, suggesting, you know, what is the one thing that people should start with? (45:56) I think we, you know, as leaders, we often, you know, high performers often continue to optimize, optimize supplements, data tracking, wearing a ring, doing this, doing that. (46:08) It’s kind of a lot.

(46:09) So let’s talk about what is kind of a thing they can focus on to start with.

Jennifer

(46:15) So the first thing in my mind is always understanding, understanding how your brain works, because if you are in burnout, because you are a fast mover versus somebody who’s like a deep processor, burnout is going to look completely different to those two people. (46:40) And the way to deal with the burnout is going to be completely different because for a deep processor, it is removing stimulus. (46:50) But if you do that to like a fast mover, like that person that I just talked about, who like is just their brain is just a hundred million miles an hour all the time by default.

(47:03) If you take away stimulus from them, it makes it worse. (47:07) Their brain cannot handle not thinking or working through a problem. (47:14) So what you need to do is you need to shift the focus.

(47:18) But for your deep processors, you know, when we talked about like that ruminator type who really likes to take their time and think through things, they need less stimulus. (47:30) So understand, take a moment and understand what actually makes you feel better. (47:37) Do you need a genomic test to tell you that on the surface of things?

(47:41) No. (47:41) Is it good to have concrete information so you know what you’re working with? (47:45) Yeah.

(47:46) Because if you are a low BDNF person, that is going to affect your neuroplasticity, your ability to create new neural connections. (47:58) Something that I think is useful for parents to know, which is why I advocate understanding what your kids’ genomics are, is the same gene, BDNF, that predicts your ability for your brain to be neuroplastic also predicts your brain’s ability to heal from traumatic brain injuries because it’s the same process. (48:25) It’s building new neurons.

(48:27) So if you have low density BDNF receptors genetically, you are inherently prone to be a slow recovery person from TBIs, and you should avoid contact sports that can give you concussions. (48:46) All right. (48:47) It’s literally sometimes called the concussion predictor gene.

(48:51) I mean, so like there’s all these kinds of things. (48:55) So, you know, understand and pay attention to how you’re wired. (49:00) And then the magical thing that happens once you start learning about this, about yourself this way, Melissa, is you get an understanding of how other people are wired differently from you.

(49:15) And you start to understand that it’s not that, you know, Brian can’t keep up with you, won’t keep up with you. (49:25) It’s that he can’t. (49:28) His brain is not programmed to think the way that you think.

(49:33) And it’s okay.

Melissa

(49:36) And I want to unpack that a little bit too, because there’s something, there’s a lot to that, because younger, younger Melissa could solve the problems quick. (49:46) And a lot of times the, (49:49) and not that I can’t solve problems quick now, but when I was younger, to your point about the (49:53) children, you know, it was hard for me sometimes because people like, oh, she’s just the smarty (49:59) that’s gonna, you know, and when you understand a little bit about the way your kids are, (50:07) like in my case, the better my parents could have prepared on how to deal with (50:12) kids that bully bullied because they, you know, I was, could answer things quickly. (50:20) I could solve problems quickly and move on the next, the next, the next. (50:24) And so to your point, helping our kids understand how they’re built and that they’re special, they’re not different or bad.

(50:34) I think it’s, it’s, it’s a really key point. (50:38) And so, you know, I find, I find it really interesting. (50:41) I, I have a high energy naturally.

(50:43) I don’t need coffee. (50:44) I just, I’m a high energetic kind of bubbly personality, but when I get around people that are more lower energy, more chill personality, if I show up to them with my normal self, they’re like, whoa, I zapped their energy. (51:03) I just literally, it takes a lot of their energy.

(51:07) And so I can switch a bit to accommodate the way they can receive me. (51:14) Right. (51:15) And I think when we have those insights, if, you know, I learned this when I had employees that reported to me that were like that, if I show up in the morning and I’m like high energy, bubbly Melissa, and they’re a, you know, an afternoon, evening low vibe person, I’m just gonna like, they won’t hear anything I’m saying.

(51:34) So I think, you know, one of the kind of in closing, I know I want to get a couple of thoughts as it relates to AI, right? (51:42) AI is the thing, right? (51:43) Everybody’s putting, you know, their lab results, their text test results, everything in AI.

(51:49) And I was having this discussion recently with a friend of mine yesterday, she went to four different doctors to solve one problem. (52:02) And all four doctors had a very different approach and way to solve their problem. (52:08) None of them agreed with the other doctor.

(52:11) So with AI, you know, in the world today, how is it affecting genetic interpretation and, you know, maybe what still needs to improve?

Jennifer

(52:23) That’s a fabulous question. (52:26) So what needs to improve is the, so what does this mean in my real everyday life? (52:33) And that’s, that’s what’s not being asked.

(52:36) We can do all of these genomics and these arrays, but if you don’t have a practical solution at the end of the day, to your friend’s point, what is all this worth? (52:48) So for example, for many years, I worked developing a neuroscience of communication training program for a lot of big pharma companies and other just very high profile companies. (53:10) So training their salespeople how to understand how the brain likes to receive information in order to help their salespeople communicate better, to help leaders communicate better.

(53:24) So, you know, I had, have an executive, you know, communication program. (53:31) And what was helpful with the genomics part was we could help them understand themselves. (53:42) Like, how is it that they’re showing up to your point?

(53:44) You realize, took a step back and realized I show up big. (53:50) And when you take a moment like you did, Melissa, to understand how you’re wired, it immediately, like I said, gives you that insight into, oh, wow, people can be wired completely differently from me. (54:06) And when I show up being all me, they can’t hear anything I say.

(54:16) It shuts the brain down. (54:19) So when we’re looking at genetic testing and you’re this, and you’re that, and you’re this, and you’re that, ask yourself, what is the interpretation come with? (54:33) What are the actionable things that I can take away from this?

(54:37) So, for example, I need, like, you know, people like, you know, you and I who are very fast thinkers, we understand that most people need to take time to digest information, mull it over a little bit, process it, you know, before they give a response. (54:59) We need to allow them to have that response. (55:03) But we need to do it in a way that makes it nonjudgmental for the other person.

(55:12) So, and this is to say, you can connect these genomic insights into tools and frameworks. (55:22) And that is my goal for people is, at the genomics company, I also have a separate company called brain selling. (55:30) So I’m trying to marry the two things together.

(55:34) Here’s how you’re wired. (55:35) So this is how you communicate. (55:38) And here’s how you need to communicate to others.

(55:40) If you want that these other people to feel heard, valued, and understood by you. (55:49) And, you know, it’s a perfect marrying of things. (55:53) And you as a human being, you’re the only one that can do that.

(55:57) Hey, I can’t do that for you. (55:59) So there’s still things that we need to learn about ourselves when we’re in conversation with other people that are going to help us lead, create better, stronger relationships, build credibility faster, great salespeople and great leaders know this. (56:22) But if we truly dive into understanding ourselves at such an intimate level, it only increases our ability to understand and communicate and connect with others.

Melissa

(56:37) Yep. (56:37) Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. (56:39) Just kind of in closing here.

(56:41) I think, you know, a lot of times I hear, you know, we need to focus on our mindset. (56:48) We need to build a strategy about what we want, you know, to achieve. (56:52) But what stands out to me is that, you know, when we have more information, we can influence our stress and recovery or energy to really lead our best life.

(57:04) And I love this conversation because I think it gives us context about, you know, like I would say there’s times, you know, when I’ve had different things happen in my life, none of it really bad where I’m like, gosh, why is this happening? (57:21) But sometimes just having the information to understand and recognizing the patterns of it and knowing what to do, it helps us interact with not only our employees, but our doctors. (57:34) So we could solve our own problems and really live our best life.

(57:39) And so I want to thank you so much for being here and talking about all of this. (57:44) Is there anything else you would like to leave with our listeners?

Jennifer

(57:48) The best investment that you can ever make is just really and truly understanding how you are wired. (57:56) Become the expert in the room on you. (58:01) Don’t outsource the understanding of your body to someone else.

(58:06) Physicians, they’re only ever going to be as good as knowing like what your most recent test results are on paper. (58:15) But if you go in there knowledgeable about yourself, you can have a very robust and much better conversation with your physician on what needs to happen next and why. (58:30) And please, please get your hormones tested.

(58:36) Understand where you’re at because a lot of people are suffering these days. (58:44) And the best thing that you can do is just understand where you are and know that, you know, there are things that we can do. (58:53) There’s ways that we can show up better.

(58:55) And a lot of them are very, very easy.

Melissa

(58:58) I agree. (59:00) Thank you so much. (59:01) And if you’ve enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe to the Executive Connect YouTube channel where we unpack conversations with executives, scientists, founders, and experts exploring leadership, health, performance, and work.

(59:16) And then subscribe to the Executive Connect brief where we turn conversations like this into practical insights you can apply immediately. (59:25) Thank you so much for being here today, Jennifer. (59:28) That’s the Executive Connect podcast.