Summary

Elaine Lin Hering, author of Unlearning Silence, joins Executive Connect to discuss breaking free from silence, overcoming societal conditioning, and making your voice heard in leadership and life. Discover practical strategies to speak up with confidence and create impactful conversations.

Chapters

00:00 Elaine’s Journey: From Silence to Leadership
02:31 The Inspiration Behind ‘Unlearning Silence’
05:12 Breaking the Cycle of Silence
09:06 Practical Steps to Be Heard
13:12 Navigating Meetings Effectively
17:45 The Impact of Technology on Communication
21:25 Finding Your Voice in Personal and Professional Spaces
26:51 The Importance of Open Conversations
30:27 Empowering Others to Speak Up
36:46 Looking Ahead: Future Projects and Goals

Transcript

Melissa Aarskaug (00:01.173)
Welcome to the Executive Connect podcast. Today I’m excited to talk to Elaine Lynn Herring about her journey into silence and having to be silenced and chatting a little bit with her about her new book. Elaine, you had such a diverse background. You’ve been a lecturer at Harvard Law School.

You’ve been managed partner at Triad Consulting Group. Can you share a little bit about some pivoting moments in your career that shapes your professional journey?

Elaine Lin Hering (00:34.676)
Absolutely. Well, first of all, I’m so delighted to be with you, Melissa, and with this community. I think my career tracks most people’s careers, which is very few of us end up doing exactly what we thought we would do. And it is that pivotal moment of choosing what’s the next thing I’m going to try. Or even if my life does not look like what I thought it would look like, maybe it’s even better.

And so I went to Harvard Law School fully intending to be a litigator. I was one of those pro-coast children that said from the time I was 11 that I was going to be a lawyer. Found out that law was not actually for me, but discovered negotiation theory and pedagogy. How do you actually communicate? How do you negotiate with, and this like light bulb moment of, wait, you can actually negotiate? Cause that’s not how I was brought up, right? Children should be seen and not heard. You should defer to your elders. You can actually negotiate. You can have an opinion of your own.

mind-blown novel idea pivoted into this thing that I didn’t know what it was called, but apparently it’s called Leadership Development. As I was teaching concepts out of the Harvard Negotiation Project for more than a decade, realized I think there’s something missing here. And so accidentally became an author of this book, Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully. And so I’m looking forward to the next chapters that are

Melissa Aarskaug (01:33.477)
Okay.

Melissa Aarskaug (01:55.973)
First of all, I love your book and I want to hear a little bit about what inspired you to write Unlearning Silence. Was it an experience?

Elaine Lin Hering (02:01.59)
professional adventures I never would have dreamt up, but that when I look back I can see how I picked up the different skill sets along the way to be awesome at what I do.

Elaine Lin Hering (02:16.706)
Thank you.

Elaine Lin Hering (02:24.163)
Mmm.

Melissa Aarskaug (02:24.875)
Was it a situation? Can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you wrote Learning Silence?

Elaine Lin Hering (02:31.65)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s both professional and personal. So I’m the youngest daughter of an immigrant family from Taiwan to the United States. I share that because often as an immigrant, you’re just trying to assimilate. You’re trying to be accepted. As the youngest daughter, I was supposed to defer to my elders and of course, coming from a culture that is pretty patriarchal, meaning my brother is more important and more valued than I am. Boy is more important than girls. And so my job…

Melissa Aarskaug (02:55.973)
So,

Elaine Lin Hering (03:00.662)
was to smile, stay silent, and serve. And I think service is a good thing and can have shadow sides if misinterpreted. So for a long time, I was that pretty quiet person who was great to work with because I kept my head down and did good work and let other people take credit for my work. And I got the same advice that I think many people get, which is if you’re not being heard, you’re not getting promoted, you’re not getting what you want in life and in leadership, you need to speak up more.

Be more assertive, be less assertive, smile more, smile less. And this is particularly gendered for people who present as female. But as I, as a leadership development person started to regurgitate that advice, I thought there’s something missing here. Because as we’re talking about, you you need to negotiate more, you need to go have the difficult conversation, you need to give or receive feedback. I noticed a pattern that no matter how

good the tools were, the training was, some people still didn’t negotiate. Some people still didn’t have the difficult conversation. Some people still wouldn’t give or receive feedback no matter how much HR or their manager or the C-suite told them they should and ask the question, what gives? And to me, the missing piece was silence. In what ways have we learned to stay silent, been rewarded in our careers for staying silent, not rocking the boat, right? Not pushing back, not being a stick in the mud.

whatever framing you want to use. And in what ways might even well intentioned leaders end up silencing the very people they want to support. So we say, my door is always open or tell me what you really think, but people still wouldn’t, still don’t. And to me, that’s that factor of silence that’s interwoven and implicated in all of our professional and personal relationships. So unlearning silence is really looking at what role does silence play on my team.

in my life and in my leadership and how am I unlearning it, questioning those assumptions, noticing the dynamics, changing our inputs, unlock and unleash talent and potential in a whole new way.

Melissa Aarskaug (05:12.404)
Yeah, I think that’s great. I think a lot of times the narrative that I used to play is like, pick your battles.

you know, be careful what you say, don’t appear too smart and nobody’s going to like you or don’t seem dumb. Then, you know, you’re not going to. So we have all these things kind of running through our mind. Like if we’re going to say something, like we get the courage to say it and then we organize what we’re going to say. And then like, it just doesn’t happen. So I see it a lot. when I worked as an engineer, a lot of times, you know, I had to sit in the back because I was younger and, know, I didn’t know enough. It’s everybody else.

Elaine Lin Hering (05:25.388)
Yeah.

Elaine Lin Hering (05:32.206)
Mmm. Mmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (05:45.282)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Aarskaug (05:48.389)
and I’d raise my hand and they continue to talk or I’m like, okay, that’s not important. And I’d raise my hand that acts of meaning and nobody, know, let me. So I think we also get trained, you we try and we try and we try and then nobody wants our opinion. And we’re like, okay, well, they got it all figured out.

Elaine Lin Hering (05:59.084)
Yes, completely.

Elaine Lin Hering (06:09.934)
Or if they don’t want to hear from me, why should I keep trying? It’s like, I’m banging my head against a brick wall. And what you said there and shared there so beautifully, right? There’s that self-censoring of, don’t want to be to this or to that, or it’s got to be a certain way. Particularly if you’re the only of any identity or new in a room or more junior, it’s easy to discount yourself, particularly as other people. Even if you said something, sometimes it’s like the conversation just moves on.

and you’re left there thinking, did I actually say that out loud? Because everyone’s acting like I didn’t actually say anything. And so we really lose this sense of value, right? Am I, is it worth me being here? Do I have anything to offer? And it leads to self doubt and lack of self confidence and really damaging self image when I think there’s contributions from all sides.

Am I doing that self-talk, self-censoring? Let me be aware of that. Is there actually anything I can change? And often in terms of mitigated speech, we as human beings don’t tend to be as clear as we think we are. So I’m thinking this is a horrible idea. This is never gonna work. We’re not gonna hit the deadline. But instead of saying that out loud, because I worry about coming across to…

fill in the blank whatever way people might describe me or my fear being perceived, I ask a question like, do you think this is gonna work? And the other people in the room are like, yeah, of course it’s gonna work, right? But there’s a huge difference between do you think this is gonna work? And what I’m really thinking in my internal voice, which is hell no, this is not gonna happen. And so in what ways do we dampen our own message without even realizing it? And then there’s other people’s contributions of assumptions of if you’re more junior.

your voice just doesn’t have as much weight or you need to raise your hand. Do you even need to raise your hand? There’s all these embedded assumptions about how we work together that contribute to who gets heard and who doesn’t.

Melissa Aarskaug (08:13.013)
Yeah, so true. And then, you know, I think about when you finally get the courage, kind of the next layer of that, you get the courage to speak up and you’re halfway through your sentence and somebody like cuts you off right before you get your point across. So people are like, oh, whatever she was saying is not valid because you didn’t get to your point thought process fast enough. I want to talk a little bit about

Elaine Lin Hering (08:32.46)
Yes.

Melissa Aarskaug (08:35.919)
you know, some actual, like actual steps people can take if they’re the ones that are being silenced or cut off or, you know, now that we’re all virtual, people raise their hand and people, you know, a lot of times say, we’ll get to you later. We’ll get to you later. And then later never comes. So I want to hear a little bit from you about some steps you can actually take to be heard and start that kind of collaborative communication with.

Elaine Lin Hering (08:49.752)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melissa Aarskaug (09:03.171)
either a professional career, and maybe even personal careers, or personal life.

Elaine Lin Hering (09:06.028)
Yeah, totally. I’ll offer two things, because we’re all about saving personal relationships as well. Those are sometimes the ones that keep us up at night even more than the work ones. So number one, I find that people really struggle with like, what’s that initial moment? What do I actually say? Because I’m sitting in a meeting and I’m like, that doesn’t work. what do I actually say? And the sort of entree phrase I find really helpful, particularly if you’re going to disagree, is I see that differently.

So different isn’t you’re wrong, I’m right, you’re wrong, I’m good, you’re bad. It’s just different. And difference exists in the world and we know that. And because we’re different human beings, obviously we’re going to see things differently. But that phrase, I see things differently or I see it differently, and then you can fill in the blank with whatever that actually is. And to me, that isn’t combative. That’s just like sign posting, I see it differently. It’s a statement of fact. So that gives you the, what’s the first phrase?

If you can’t even get there, you could even just go, hold on. Right. And hold on is again, that’s taking the ground. Pause the conversation. Yellow flag. We got to revisit this, whatever it is. So hold on. Or I see it differently. The other thing can be really helpful in this conversation is when I’m having a conversation with you, I don’t really want to push back on you. Right. I don’t want to play devil’s advocate. Even if someone’s like play devil’s advocate, it feels relationally awful.

to be against you. I want to be on the same team. And in the book, I talk about this as three levers for voice. There’s substance, what we’re talking about. There’s relationship, who’s doing the talking, and then process, how we’re communicating about it. And a big process move is using standard questions. And so if on our team, every time we’re talking about something, evaluating an issue, we always ask, what are the pros, what are the cons?

What about this works? What about this doesn’t work? What about this resonate, doesn’t resonate? Those are the same boring old questions that are always on the agenda. And it does a couple of things. It means I don’t have to push back. It means I don’t have to speak up because I just have to answer the agenda item questions. And it also means that if I wire differently, which we can get into, some of us are post-processors, some of us are real-time processors, post-processors meaning I’m

Elaine Lin Hering (11:29.088)
in the meeting, can’t quite figure out to say, but 20 minutes after I’ve clicked out of Zoom, I’m like, that’s what I wanted to say. Okay, I’m seeing the head nod, the recognition. You’re not alone. Oftentimes that feels like a weakness. And in a professional world, it’s characterized as a weakness. When it’s really just a difference in wiring, some of us communicate and process better the more we talk it out. Some of us, need that space in engineering terms to cache and compile, right? We need to think.

Melissa Aarskaug (11:31.348)
Yeah.

Elaine Lin Hering (11:58.252)
and it comes to us. So instead of trying to make everybody fit into this real time mode, what if we actually account for that difference in wiring and that standard question of, I know it’s going to be pros and cons. So I can sort of pre-process also helps. But it also means that in the meeting, instead of just saying, all right, arbitrary 30 minute meeting is over, we click out the decision’s been made, whoever’s owning the meeting can say, all right, everybody sleep on it.

as you post-process, reply all on that email or put it on that Slack thread. And it does a couple of things. Number one, it normalizes that we’re wired differently. Number two, it means that people know, okay, I just have to reply all on that email. Cause there’s that moment of paralysis if we’ve clicked out of the meeting, particularly virtually. And I’m like, ooh, do I just text Melissa? Do I email her? Do I reply all? And I can get overwhelmed by the decision-making.

of how I actually re-engage the conversation. But if I’ve made clear what the avenue for continuing the conversation is, I’ve taken that labor off someone else’s plate and increases the likelihood they engage in the conversation.

Melissa Aarskaug (13:12.765)
Yeah, and I also think, I don’t know about you, but in the world today, I say death by meetings. Like there’s so many meetings and more meetings and more meetings. And so before I show up, I like to know what we’re talking about. Before, yeah, right. I could just say, I know, right? And I like to find out what we’re talking about and what the outcome of the meeting is.

Elaine Lin Hering (13:26.958)
Really? Why? What a novel idea.

Melissa Aarskaug (13:37.711)
So I can prepare the right questions based on what the discussion is going to be. And then while I’m in the meeting, I’m actively thinking about what’s going on. And then at the end of the meeting, if I didn’t get what I need to get out, I often message people or say things like, have you thought of this? Or I really liked your idea.

Elaine Lin Hering (13:59.267)
Mm.

Melissa Aarskaug (14:03.747)
we should also try this. And I think it’s just being organized and prepared sometimes and get, you know, getting confidence to do it. I feel like it’s a muscle. Once you figure out and you’re on video, you’re on camera and you’re actively engaged. I find a lot of times I’m on zoom calls and like I could tell that like 20 % of the people are paying attention. And so you have the opportunity

to really get your opinions across if you’re paying attention.

Elaine Lin Hering (14:38.306)
Well, yes to if you’re paying attention and also number one, should it even be a meeting? Right? What is the purpose? If it’s an update, if it’s a unilateral update, that can be asynchronous. And so let’s just start with eliminate the things that should have been an email anyways, because the GIF exists for a reason. Second, and I’ll say this, especially knowing who listens to this podcast. If you are a leader,

formally or informally in an organization, but particularly if you’re an executive, what do your behaviors model? Because you have the power and influence to cancel the meeting, to ask the question ahead of time, to suggest maybe meet without me because you want other people to brainstorm more freely without your influence in the room because they’re more likely to be quiet if you’re in the room and they’re all waiting to see what you’re going to do. How do you want to set the tone?

for how we operate, spend our time, and not waste our time around here.

Melissa Aarskaug (15:41.253)
I love it. And I think once you find that voice, you get more time back in your day. I think we just show up and, you know, the day runs us instead of running our day. And I love that you brought that up because I think that’s so important. You know, I’ve had recently somebody say, why aren’t you in this meeting? I’m like, because I don’t have anything to contribute. It’s not even in my job description or purview. And they’re like,

Elaine Lin Hering (15:53.198)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Aarskaug (16:10.307)
Yeah, that’s true. You know, I’m like, okay, well, let’s move on. And so it’s really important to manage your day and get your needs met because you could be sitting on meetings that don’t affect your day. But really understanding what your role is in sitting in these meetings. Like, what are you contributing? they want you to contribute or is this just an FYI? And like you said, if it’s an FYI, send me an email.

Elaine Lin Hering (16:11.326)
Hahaha!

Yes.

Elaine Lin Hering (16:19.915)
Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (16:37.55)
Yes. Was it a courtesy invite? Right? Because particularly if you’re lower on the org chart, there can be a, want to keep Melissa in the loop. I don’t want Melissa to be offended or feel left out. And you’re like, leave me out of it because I hired good people and I know you’re more than competent. But there’s that clarifying, what are we assuming about each other? What do you mean by this invitation? Just because you included me on the invite doesn’t mean I’m promising to show up.

And if you want me to show up, I need you to let me know what you’re expecting of me so I can be value add, right? Make this worthwhile for everyone.

Melissa Aarskaug (17:15.501)
Yeah, and kind of pivoting this a little bit personally, I know a lot of people are working remotely these days, artificial intelligence, doing a lot more things. I personally feel like interpersonal skills have changed a lot lately. Even just simple thank you for holding the door or, you know, with children, this is probably historically always the case. Like, how was your day? Good. You know, just expanding upon

Elaine Lin Hering (17:33.134)
Mm.

Elaine Lin Hering (17:41.784)
Yeah.

Melissa Aarskaug (17:45.765)
a thought communication is it seems like it’s like a prompt now. from your perspective, are these technologies affecting people’s communication? Is it silencing their voices? What are your thoughts on that?

Elaine Lin Hering (17:59.348)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. mean, to me, technology is and always has been a tool. But because it’s a tool, we need to know how are we using it, what role do we want it to play in our lives rather than it running our days or running us. I I know I run my days by my Google calendar. can’t. I’ve outsourced, right? I’ve outsourced that. But where is our agency, our intentionality in that?

And so let me offer this, which is as we talk about voice and silence, voice isn’t just the words you say or don’t say in a meeting. Voice is how you move through the world. And so what are your personal values? You could call them brand values. You could think of them as personal values, but much like your company has company values, what are your own values? Because that to me, the manifestation of the living out of your own personal values is your voice.

Melissa Aarskaug (18:43.572)
So, I’m to presentation.

Elaine Lin Hering (18:56.906)
It’s not just what you say, it’s how you move through the world. And AI can’t replicate that.

So in what ways might AI or whatever technology supplement what you’re doing, amplify what you’re doing in a way that we’re not fearful of it, but it really is an amplifier and an enhancer rather than us following machine learning’s lead over time.

Melissa Aarskaug (19:27.451)
Yeah, I love that you said that. think, you I work from home. So a lot of times I’m on a computer, I’m working in silence.

Elaine Lin Hering (19:31.426)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Melissa Aarskaug (19:35.653)
And same as you, working off calendars. And I’ve noticed just a shift in myself where I’m not communicating as much. And kind of what you were saying at the beginning, when I do communicate, how I’m, what I’m getting out, is it clear, concise? And does the person receiving it understand, you know, their piece of it? Are they listening? Is it, they’re an action for them? So a lot of times, if there is an action, I’ll clarify with the person on the end.

Elaine Lin Hering (19:47.544)
Mm.

Melissa Aarskaug (20:04.005)
So you’re gonna send me that invite. Great, because I think you’re so spot on with that, like how we’re communicating, what I understand sometimes is different than the person. I think it’s so spot on right now.

Elaine Lin Hering (20:06.104)
Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (20:13.951)
Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (20:20.886)
Yeah, and I think the over-reliance on technology, right? Part of your question was, does technology silence us? Again, I think it’s, we choosing our relationship with these technologies? When AI suggests the language that I’m typing in the email, sometimes I’m like, that’s brilliant. I just click enter and it has expedited my process. Sometimes it cannot anticipate what I’m trying to say, right? We are still adding the human element.

of it and however much of our lives is automated, the difference, the different, how we differentiate ourselves from the technology is actually our humanity. So how do we bring more of that back, particularly when the technology means that we lose some of that social connectivity, the warmth, the humor, the awkwardness that makes us human and also makes us connect as people.

Melissa Aarskaug (21:20.938)
Yeah, I love that. I want to talk a little bit about

You know, you struggled at the beginning and you found your voice. You’re a humongous success story in, you know, one end of the spectrum and the other end of the spectrum. And I often hear a lot and, you know, I’m an engineer, I’m in the tech community, younger generations. I hear all the time women and men struggling to find their voice and speak up, whether it’s in intimate relationships, at work or…

Elaine Lin Hering (21:29.502)
Mm. Mm.

Elaine Lin Hering (21:49.742)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Aarskaug (21:51.321)
you know, maybe they have a friend that’s always late and they just are like, gosh, can you be on time or hey, give me the courtesy update. so what advice would you give women or men or anybody struggling to find their voice on how they can actually find their voice?

Elaine Lin Hering (21:54.711)
Mm.

Elaine Lin Hering (22:09.196)
Yeah, I mean, I’ll try to distill what I ended up writing an entire book on. So one is just thinking about voice in an expansive way, not just the words you say, but how you move through the world. And in Chapter six, I’m offering three levers for voice. So that substance relationship process, thinking about how do we use each of those to make ourselves heard, to get our needs met. There are some fundamental assumptions there, which is

Often in terms of getting our needs met, people are thinking, well, I don’t want to come across as needy. And there’s a mindset shift there, which is we’re human. We all have needs, goals, hopes, and concerns. Yours matter as much as anyone else’s, even if that’s not how other people treat you. So there’s an aspect of, can I take up space? I don’t want to be a burden that can often be at play versus just the normalization. And in a very clinical way,

I am a party to this negotiation. Therefore, I have needs, goals, hopes, and concerns of my own. That’s the fundamental part of interest-based negotiation. The other is what might the world or other people be missing out on because you’re withholding yourself, withholding your insight and expertise. So what is really sort of bland and not novel to you, run of the mill to you, maybe profound to someone else.

And so you’re, you go. If you’re an other centered person, sometimes that mental hack of how can me actually using my voice more be of service to others can be really helpful. Especially if you’re someone who’s like, I don’t want to take up space or I’ve been penalized for taking up space. It’s how can I actually add? Because no one in this world can be you, but you, right? You as an engineer are going to see different things based on the data that you have, the projects that you touch.

Melissa Aarskaug (23:37.763)
Yes. No, no, finish your thought. Sorry.

Elaine Lin Hering (24:06.538)
where in the world you sit, you’re going to have a different vantage point than anywhere else. And again, if you’re looking for an entryway into that conversation, the phrase, from where I sit, can be really helpful. So from where I sit, the numbers don’t add up. What do things look like from where you sit? So part of our hesitation can be, I don’t want to get it wrong. I can anticipate their rebuttal, but

In doing that and defaulting to silence, we end up not sharing our insights, our expertise versus how do we fully own what I know and what I see, which is gonna be one slice of the puzzle, one piece of the puzzle and invite in the other puzzle pieces, right? So from where I sit, this doesn’t make sense because of X, Y, Z reasons, what does it look like from where you sit? Granted, you live in, you sit in a different state, you sit in a different part of the organization.

So we’re gonna see different things so that frame of where I sit can be really helpful as well.

Melissa Aarskaug (25:07.496)
Yeah, and I think that’s such an important piece as well is, you know, I just in my experience, I’ve had some people that were not, you know, engineers or technologists find solutions. were non-technical people.

Elaine Lin Hering (25:23.394)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Aarskaug (25:23.543)
finding solutions to problems because they passed by and noticed something that somebody else did it. And they were, one of the people was a janitor of a building I worked out of. And he came up with a solution that an entire team couldn’t, but he spoke up and shared what he heard just casually. And just like you said, who knows who could benefit from what you share.

Elaine Lin Hering (25:26.35)
Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (25:33.966)
Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (25:50.029)
you

Melissa Aarskaug (25:52.037)
and the other side of it, I was at an event last night and I heard from, a young intern that complained that she’d been an intern for a while at a company and she hadn’t received a pay raise and she was very frustrated and she was looking for a new role. And I asked her, you know, have you sat down with your boss and manager and talk to them? And her response was no. Well, she went ahead and did that.

Elaine Lin Hering (26:19.555)
Mm.

Melissa Aarskaug (26:21.601)
and circled back around to me come to find out her pay raise was accidentally processed incorrectly in their payroll system. So she indeed did receive the pay raise, but it never actually ended up in her bank account. And so kind of going back to what you were saying is sometimes things we make assumptions or we don’t want to speak up about is maybe not even intentional. It’s a clerical error or

Elaine Lin Hering (26:45.357)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Aarskaug (26:50.917)
So if we don’t find that strength within to ask those questions, we might be missing out on promotions and money and all kinds of things in our life that we otherwise wouldn’t have.

Elaine Lin Hering (26:55.043)
Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (27:00.46)
Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (27:05.326)
I think that’s totally right, including the, I’ve been here for a long time. I would have expected a pay raise. I haven’t seen it. So I’m sort of confused, right? That’s a conversation rather than a demand. And it surfaces what could be a clerical error, an opportunity, or a miscommunication. But we can’t figure out where we’ve missed each other, where we haven’t understood the other person, or where we have missing data until we have those conversations.

I do want to layer on another piece, which is if I am a leader, I am an executive, part of my role is how do I make it easier for other people to raise those issues? Because we are often invisible. The power that we have is invisible to us. As an exec, I’m focused on the power I don’t have, right? What the board will let me do or not do. If I’m a middle manager, I’m focused on what the execs let me do or not do. And I’m not.

focusing on the power I do have and the power that other people perceive me having, including this speaking up, right? It’s phrased as speaking up for that reason. I’m speaking up in the org chart. I’m speaking across lines of power. And you, executive, have influence over my paycheck, my promotion, my career, my relationships, and there’s a lot there. So if, as an exec, I want people,

to ask what may feel like silly questions, but might actually lead us to a new innovation or a solve for problem the way that you mentioned the janitor coming up with a solution. I need to make that really explicit. That here we value all perspectives. And you know what, intern? You’re gonna see things that I don’t see because you come to this with fresh eyes. You come to this with an engineering lens when I’m coming at this with a legal lens.

And again, this is the essence of teamwork, right? We’re putting together the puzzle pieces, but as the leader, I need to be explicit about that’s what I expect. And as people share their puzzle pieces, my response is consistent with that, which starts with appreciation, right? Thank you for sharing. And what am I going to do about it? And if I’m not doing what you’re suggesting or prescribing, let me circle back to make sure I let you know, you know, we didn’t get to this quarter.

Elaine Lin Hering (29:32.524)
because there’s a cashflow issue or because we have a different priority. It’s not to say that it’s not important, but as I look at things from where I sit, it didn’t make the cut, right? And that helps people with what can feel like, you know, if I come to you, my exec, and share something with you, and then I hear nothing back, it’s incredibly demotivating and it’s really easy for me to draw the conclusion that my voice and my perspective don’t matter. Whereas,

Melissa Aarskaug (29:42.237)
you

Elaine Lin Hering (30:00.878)
you’re probably juggling a million things that they cannot see. So it doesn’t need to be extensive, but even in terms of priorities, we determined that these three were the top priorities for the first half of the year. And so it’s on the list for Q3, Q4. Then people know, all right, it’s in the ecosystem rather than, I guess I banged my head against the wall and it’s useless.

Melissa Aarskaug (30:27.169)
Yeah, and I also think if you’re uncomfortable or unsure or

not confident in speaking up, find somebody like a buddy that you can bounce something off of. find, you know, I have a very direct personality and sometimes it’s not well received by other people, which is totally fine. I’ve learned how to kind of work through that, but I have had friends that I’ve bounced ideas off or chatted through things. I think when you’re able to practice it in a

let’s say non-scary environment or a casual environment that and get somebody else’s independent view on the situation. It tends to give us strength to do things when we’ve practiced it. So practice it outside, I think as well with a trusted partner.

Elaine Lin Hering (31:09.678)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (31:19.17)
Yeah, totally. And this is also where I love technology because it’s really awkward to practice a conversation with someone. You know what’s even more awkward? Not practicing it and going in cold. But if you’re, know, you don’t want to play your friends in that way or your spouse is tired of hearing about what’s going on at work, pull out your smartphone, turn it on selfie mode and record yourself.

and then play it back. Now, maybe that’s even more threatening than talking with friends, so we’re just trying to give you options here. But what practicing with a buddy does or recording is, number one, it shows you that you’re actually usually not gonna die from making this request. That embodied experience of I said the words and it didn’t kill me, even though it can feel that way. Second is as you do the playback,

of the video or you get feedback from your buddy, it will tell you whether you’re actually being as clear as you think you are. Again, it’s that example where, you know, do you really think that’s a good idea versus hell no, that’s never going to happen. Really big difference. And so you’re checking really for understanding. We can’t control what other people hear, but we do have influence over what we share with them. So can I at least own my part of the puzzle of what I’m sharing?

and you get that test from either recording yourself or testing it out on a buddy as you said.

Melissa Aarskaug (32:52.313)
And get, I think get feedback too. Like, you know, when you’re presenting something, you know, I’m a fidgety, you know, look left, look right person. And so many of my friends were like, Hey, what are you doing? Are you reading an email? I’m like, no, I’m staring at the answers on the ceiling. Why? And, but

It took somebody coaching me to tell me that like I’m looking up so are you rolling your eyes? I’m like, no, I’m just, that’s how I think up. And so I didn’t realize that about myself until like you said, I recorded myself and then I had somebody tell me, know, Melissa, what’s wrong? You know, you’re reading emails back and forth but it’s really just the way my brain thinks. And so I love kind of what you were saying about the video because we often realize

Elaine Lin Hering (33:13.73)
Mm-hmm.

Elaine Lin Hering (33:17.57)
Yeah.

Melissa Aarskaug (33:38.213)
you know, things about ourselves that we otherwise wouldn’t. And that’s fantastic example.

Elaine Lin Hering (33:46.754)
Yeah, I want to take what you just offered as well because there is, let me record myself and maybe, you know, look in the camera rather than up at the ceiling. And that’s valuable coaching. I also want to offer the idea that, you know, no one’s perfect. And we have this one, we tend to have this one model, particularly in corporate spaces of how we’re supposed to speak and how real execs show up. Three succinct bullet points, no ums.

just the right amount of emotion to show that you care, but not too much that you don’t seem credible, particularly if you’re a woman. And what if we got to be more human? And the way that we can do that is not try to fix our eye contact or eliminate all of our ums, because at the end of the day, we’re human. But what you’ve done so beautifully in this conversation is, hey, I’m a really direct person.

Or this is the way my brain thinks. I’m sort of here and there. And so you’ll see that about me. Then I know how to code your behavior. When I see you looking to the side or up to the ceiling, I don’t think you’re distracted or not paying attention. I’m like, that’s apparently how Melissa’s brain is working. So I’m going to focus on tracking you. So we can offer that framing to help people understand where we’re coming from. It also takes the pressure off of us to have to

have this perfect image all the time, right? And there’s power, particularly as an exec, to say, you know what, it’s been a tough day. Or last night was a really short night of sleep, but I am here with all I’ve got, and you’re getting maybe 80 % of me today. But you’re also normalizing for other people, it is okay to be a multifaceted human being. I don’t know, maybe your kids were up last night, maybe your kids were sick, maybe your dog died, whatever it is, we’re not robots.

So how do we, instead of spending the energy trying to pretend that we are robotic professionals, just offer that insight to, yeah, I’m a really direct person, or this is what I’m working on.

Melissa Aarskaug (35:55.208)
I love that. That is so good. You know, we hear the word authentic a lot. Like we hear that a lot in leadership. You’ve got to be authentic and authentic and you know, authentic to me is human. It’s messy. It’s like you were saying, my video is not on today because I was up all night and I’m not feeling good or, you know, and so I think the more that you

you do what you were saying, the stronger you build trust in relationships and community, because people know they can bring their authentic self. If you’re saying, you know, I’m late because of this reason, or I can’t share my camera, they’re like, okay, I could be my authentic self too, and say, well, I don’t, I’m in a different room because my husband kicked me out, or, you know, the plumber is fixing our plumbing, and you create more, you know, authentic.

Elaine Lin Hering (36:27.789)
Yes.

Elaine Lin Hering (36:41.367)
Yeah.

Elaine Lin Hering (36:46.125)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Aarskaug (36:46.145)
and great tight relationships with that. I love that you said that.

Elaine Lin Hering (36:48.928)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. There’s just so much posturing that we feel like we have to do and so much real life that is happening. So again, channel that energy differently just because you’re tired, just because you had a rough night or the plumbers here doesn’t mean that we can’t get really good high impact work done. Maybe we do that better with the camera off.

May we do that better with me on mute right now so you don’t hear me hacking up a store, whatever it is, but I’m here, right? And letting that be enough.

Melissa Aarskaug (37:29.273)
I love it. So many good nuggets there. Thank you so much for sharing all that. Now, what’s next? Share with our listeners any upcoming projects, research. Are you writing another book? Are you speaking? Tell us what’s next.

Elaine Lin Hering (37:40.739)
Yeah.

Yeah, I am speaking wherever I can about unlearning silence because my hope and aim is to put silence on the map the way Brene Brown put shame on the map. I want us to talk about it, solve for it, figure it out. I want unlearning silence embedded in every high potential leadership program so that we are leading in that way that makes it easier for the people who report to us and follow us to show up and unleash their talent. So if that’s something you’re designing, would love to be in that conversation.

For the sake of my marriage, I am not yet working on another book. Again, the personal and professional mix, but have good ideas brewing. So in the meantime, it’s really trying to figure out how do we lead in a way where we don’t unintentionally silence the very people we want to support.

Melissa Aarskaug (38:15.781)
you

Melissa Aarskaug (38:31.6)
That is so great. Elaine, thank you so much for your time, your knowledge, and all your positive energy. Thank you for being here today.

Elaine Lin Hering (38:41.836)
Thanks for having me.

Melissa Aarskaug (38:43.863)
And that’s the Executive Connect podcast.