In this episode of Executive Connect, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Karl Maier, fractional CFO and author of Surfing Economic Chaos, to talk about one of the biggest reasons growing companies get into trouble: they focus on revenue and ignore cash flow. Karl explains why fast growth can actually create more financial pressure, what founders get wrong about capital raises, how AI is changing financial operations, and why strong systems matter long before things get messy.

This episode is for founders, CEOs, and operators who want to grow with more clarity, make better financial decisions, and avoid learning cash flow lessons the hard way. Press play before revenue growth writes a cash flow check your business cannot cash.

Chapters:
(0:00) Why growth can still drain cash
(3:22) When to think like a CFO
(4:38) Balancing fast growth with discipline
(6:22) The dangerous sales misconception
(7:47) Where AI fits in finance
(12:11) Scaling without breaking the business
(15:38) A turnaround story under pressure
(19:52) What makes a company recoverable
(22:04) Why most capital raises fail
(29:12) The mindset behind surfing chaos
(31:09) Emotional discipline in financial decisions
(34:11) Routines that create clarity

Karl

(0:00) A lot of times what I see is people just feel like I’ve got a great business and they probably do (0:07) and this is a great opportunity for an investor and they just assume that the investors are going (0:13) to come to them or all they have to do is get introduced and the investors will immediately (0:18) understand why this is such a a good opportunity and so because that they’ve got that assumption (0:25) they don’t really prepare. (0:27) There’s a lot that you can do to improve your odds of getting the funding you need.

Melissa

(0:33) What happens when your business grows faster than your cash flow? (0:38) You either ride the wave or wipe out. (0:42) Today’s guest Carl Meyer knows exactly how to help leaders surf those waves.

(0:48) As a fractional CFO and author of Surfing Economic Chaos, Carl helps industrial and energy firms grow 25% or more annually. (1:02) Without running out of cash or losing control from capital raises and M&A to AI-driven financial planning, Carl’s work is all around turning chaos into clarity. (1:17) Today on the Executive Connect podcast we’re diving into the art of scaling up without cash stress and how to stay balanced while doing it.

(1:29) Welcome to the show Carl.

Karl

(1:31) Thank you Melissa, great to be here.

Melissa

(1:34) Now you say cash flow is the life blood of a company but so many leaders focus on revenue instead. (1:44) Why do you think cash flow gets overlooked and what’s the real danger of that?

Karl

(1:50) Right well when you start your company you know the very first thing is nothing really happens (1:56) unless you sell something so that’s revenue so you you kind of learn that that’s really (2:01) important and it is of course it’s important if you’re not selling that that’s a problem (2:07) but as you grow things get a little more complicated you know when you first start (2:12) it’s you know we I sell something I deliver it I collect the money and then repeat and that’s (2:19) great but as I get a little bigger all of a sudden things get a little more complicated I’ve got (2:24) more people to pay especially if I’m a service company if I’m a manufacturing company or (2:30) distribution I’ve got inventory to worry about and the cash timing gets a little more complicated (2:37) and I’ve seen you know business owners business leaders that kind of develop a sixth sense of (2:44) how long things to take and kind of do it by seat of the pants and that that can work but (2:51) as you more you grow and the more complicated it gets the harder that is and so that’s when (2:59) people kind of get caught in a what we’re we’re out of cash you know and it can be as simple (3:04) as a big customer not paying an invoice when you expect them to or you know a vendor puts you on (3:12) credit hold for some reason and all of a sudden wow things are kind of tight and that could be (3:17) really stressful so that’s that’s my experience around cash flow.

Melissa

(3:22) Now at what stage should leaders be thinking more like a CFO rather than an operator?

Karl

(3:30) Yeah as you you know as you grow you (3:33) know when you when you’ve just got you know a few people and you know it’s it’s like you say (3:40) you know I sell it I deliver it I collect the money you know you probably you need to make (3:46) sure you do some accounting reconcile your bank statements but may not lead need that CFO level (3:51) but as you get particularly you get you know more complicated manufacturing or your distribution (3:57) companies growing and now you need a little bit more of the CFO skill sets and you know (4:03) well I don’t need to know just what happened yesterday accounting’s kind of in the rear view (4:08) mirror now I need to start kind of looking ahead and say okay well where am I gonna you know what’s (4:13) my cash going to be in a couple weeks from now or months from now and you know what you know if I (4:19) expand you know into a different region or if I add another product line or service how does that (4:26) affect my cash flow so CFOs are much more about looking into the future and helping kind of (4:32) prevent you from you know running your ship into the rocks as opposed to looking in the rear view (4:37) mirror.

Melissa

(4:38) Now how should executives balance aggressive growth targets when starting with financial discipline?

Karl

(4:49) Right to me they they just go together you know if you want to grow quickly you need to be aware of what you know the financial risks are and they can be significant. (5:02) I talked to a banker one time who told me that something like two-thirds of all bankruptcies happen within 12 months of your record sales so growing quickly is great but it doesn’t mean you can’t you know run into the you know run into the rocks have a problem with your you know running out of cash because you can be profitable and still run out of cash. (5:28) Running out of cash is what puts (5:30) you out of business it’s not running you know I’ve seen companies that you know sales stopped and (5:36) they didn’t go out of business but I’ve seen other companies that were you know selling growing sales (5:41) fast as they could and then they went out of business so there’s a lot of reasons that you (5:47) should kind of marry that aggressive growth with some financial looking into the future.

Melissa

(5:56) Now what is one financial misconception amongst founders and CEOs that you would love to correct? (6:06) What would that be? (6:07) Ready to lead smarter and invest wiser?

(6:11) On the Executive Connect podcast we unpack executive strategies for wealth and influence. (6:17) Hit the subscribe button now don’t just watch act.

Karl

(6:22) One of the the interesting things is if you get in a kind of tight cash position (6:27) other things are a little tight well the instinct is to sell more to kind of I’m going to earn my (6:33) way out of the problem but for for the vast majority of companies they have to you know pay for products (6:39) pay people’s salary before they collect the money for that sale and so the faster you grow actually (6:47) the more cash you use and that’s kind of backwards from you know kind of the what you’d expect you (6:55) expect wow if I sell more I’m going to get more cash in and so that’s the one thing that you know (7:01) that’s the most common misconception I hear so if you get in a tight cash position actually the (7:07) way you get more cash for the vast majority of companies is actually to slow sales down so you (7:14) want to focus on the most profitable sales and kind of ease off of those less profitable ones (7:22) but then you collect the money and you’re back in a little better shape from a cash position.

Melissa

(7:28) Fantastic. (7:29) Now AI has found its way into nearly every corner of business today including finance right? (7:39) So what role do you think AI should play in managing cash flow and growth for companies?

Karl

(7:47) Well I think for smaller companies AI is just coming into the tools that we use to to manage growth. (7:57) One of the things I think we’re going to see in the not too distant future may take a year or two companies like QuickBooks have so much data that can feed the AI and I think we’re going to see that accounting is going to be done largely by AI in the very near future. (8:19) I think that’s going to be one of the really really strong tools.

(8:22) Starting to see some people that are using AI to try and do cash flow forecasting that’s still not as smooth as I’d like it to be so I think I think it’ll get there but there’s a lot of analytical tools in terms of you know what what are my KPIs how am I doing on my KPIs and digging into your data that are starting to come out that can be really powerful as well. (8:49) So I think there’s there’s a lot of things going on with AI that can really help you know kind of lower middle market and small businesses.

Melissa

(8:59) So are there any risks that emerge when leaders over rely on automation?

Karl

(9:07) Absolutely. (9:08) I love systems. (9:10) I’ve you know got a systems background in my you know both my academic training but also in my experience putting accounting systems in place ERP systems into place and helping select all types of different systems for companies.

(9:27) So I think automation could be fantastic but you know any time you’re automating something you’ve got to kind of be careful that you don’t do it too much and you know it’s like if I’ve got a self-driving car you know it better be really really good at driving me so it doesn’t drive me into a barricade or something. (9:49) So for your systems you know you need to be selective about what you’re (9:55) automating and you know most people you know that have a sales or you know customer service type of (10:02) background kind of intuitively understand you know I’ve got to take care of the customer (10:07) and if I just automate everything you know I’m gonna automate my collections that sounds great (10:13) you know from sitting in a conference room but you’ve got to kind of test it out and make sure (10:19) it really works in a way that doesn’t you know frustrate the heck out of your customers and they (10:24) go somewhere else.

Melissa

(10:27) Now looking ahead let’s say a couple years which is like 10-20 years in the world of technology and AI right now how do you think AI is going to reshape the role of the CFO?

Karl

(10:41) I think the CFO is going to have a lot more tools that they can deploy cost effectively. (10:50) I don’t think AI is going to replace the CFO role anytime you know maybe 20 years from now but I’m not you know that’s a long long long time from now so in the next few years I see AI bringing tools that are going to make your CFO much even more effective at helping you identify problems and opportunities in your business. (11:13) So I met with a AI company earlier this week and they were focused on the franchise restaurant business and they were taking information from like the point of sale systems in those restaurants and using it to identify potential issues.

(11:34) Hey you may want to look at your cost you know kind of wasted food measurement you know that’s something you should dig into or you know there’s a mismatch between your the actual cash you’ve received and the food going out maybe there’s a you know somebody’s putting something in their pocket. (11:55) So you know those are the types of tools that are coming out and I think you know that’s just one particular industry I think we’re going to see that in a lot more spaces over the you know next year or two.

Melissa

(12:11) Now let’s talk a little bit I think one of the things I hear the most Carl is the stress of scaling it’s high stress and you help companies scale 25 percent or more a year without running out of money. (12:27) That’s a pretty significant achievement when starting a business. (12:31) What are the first steps leaders should take if they want to grow quickly but sustainably?

Karl

(12:38) Wow that’s a that’s a good question. (12:41) A mentor of mine somebody that has you know I really respect has grown a company extremely quickly he sold his company for hundreds of millions of dollars says he told me that every time you double your company everything breaks. (12:56) So if you’re if you’re growing at 25 percent a year with compounding you’re going to double in three years.

(13:02) If you grow at 40 percent a year you’re going to double in basically two years and so everything’s going to break. (13:11) The communication, the computer systems, the processes, maybe you know the vendors or service providers you know you’ve been using you’re going to outgrow and so you kind of if you’re growing quickly you have to keep planning and thinking about how your business is changing. (13:30) The same you know you can’t double twice and keep doing things the same way you’ve always been doing it and I’ve that’s where I really thrive.

(13:40) I’ve helped you know a number of companies double sales in two years and a number of them kept growing well beyond that and yeah so what what are you going to look out for? (13:51) The first thing I’m going to think about is my processes and systems and how do they need to adjust because I’m probably adding more people and the maybe the service offerings or the product offerings I’m bringing to market are changing so really keep an eye on your processes and your systems and that includes everything from management to accounting to operational systems to your sales process.

Melissa

(14:20) Now are there operating systems that must exist or must you must have in place before you start to accelerate this growth or is it really just systems?

Karl

(14:33) There there certainly are things you know like operate business operating systems is one way they’re described but also systems for you know keeping track your accounting or you know managing your sales process that really make it a lot easier you know is it absolutely necessary? (14:52) Well you know that’s that’s the judgment call that every business owner needs to make but (14:58) you know you should at least be aware of that decision make it as a you know if you just say (15:03) I’m not going to use that type of system you know at least understand what that system looks like (15:09) and if you’re going to make a conscious choice not to use it that’s fine but don’t just go ahead (15:15) blindly and assume that the way you’ve always been doing it is going to help you scale up to (15:21) the next level and the level beyond that.

Melissa

(15:24) Yeah I love it I think what works for one company (15:27) probably doesn’t work for another and it’s really just depending on you know the team that’s in (15:32) place and the the budgets that you have and so let’s talk about some of the lessons from the (15:38) field I often find we learn the most from the lessons so turning chaos into opportunity now (15:46) you’ve helped companies move from near bankruptcy to thriving enterprises are you able to share a (15:52) turnaround story that fundamentally shifts or shapes your approach to helping companies scale?

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Karl

(16:31) Sure yeah I’ve got a few of them I’ll just (16:33) give you one today but the the company I met this company it was a probably a decade before (16:43) and they had started growing and I helped them with a few projects and you know as they were (16:50) taking off they’re like okay we’ll really appreciate that work I love what you’ve done for us (16:55) on those tools but I think we’ve got it from here we’re going to use some other you know (17:02) you know less expensive resources for the financial stuff so we’ll be good and they (17:06) they grew from like 5 million to 30 million and that was fantastic there was you know it’s a (17:13) little bit of a downturn in their industry and then they went down and once they started going (17:18) down it kind of compounded it kind of built on itself and you know the you know cost some (17:26) customers left and then the bank started pressure on them and then the next thing you know they’re (17:32) takes a few years of going down but they ended up in bankruptcy and they gave me a call I’ve got a (17:38) turnaround certification so the bankruptcy court would pointed me as an advisor to help them move (17:45) forward and the first meeting with bankruptcy judge and both sides of the attorneys the attorneys (17:56) both attorneys and the judge were talking saying yeah this company’s too small they’ll never make (18:00) it through chapter 11 bankruptcy and you know it was kind of like oh wow you know but but I thought (18:08) I saw a path and so I helped them and we we got the cash flow positive brought them back to (18:15) profitability we restructured some of the debt and had you know we had plans to execute that (18:24) that restructuring plan had the lenders lined up and you know that took about (18:32) took about 10 months to go through that whole process and we’re just a couple weeks from (18:38) doing that implementing that turnaround and then they had a fire and they had a handful of (18:43) buildings and one of the buildings burned to the ground and the the the financial institution that (18:51) we had lined up they said I’m out and the bankruptcy court heard that and they scheduled a (18:57) hearing for three weeks to liquidate the company you know bye-bye all done and so you know but I (19:05) I made a couple calls found some people that would step in replace that that funding the debt and so (19:15) we were able to do that before that hearing and so we were able to go into that hearing saying okay (19:22) we’ve re-established a plan we’re still ready to move forward and within 30 days we had them out (19:28) of bankruptcy and then they were able to to grow again and so that you know huge impact for the (19:34) family you know the they had personal guarantees and so you know the family would have been (19:40) devastated by by that loss.

Melissa

(19:43) Now what separates the recoverable companies from those that are beyond repair?

Karl

(19:52) Yeah there’s a there’s a fine line in there you know is there fundamentally (19:56) a sound business there sometimes the market collapses you know you know if you’re in the (20:02) oil field in 1985 you you know a lot of companies there was no way they were ever going to be able (20:08) to recover you know after the dot-com collapse in 2000 again there are situations that you know (20:15) it just wasn’t recoverable but if the number one thing that really makes the difference (20:22) is the attitude of the owner the or the you know executive the leader of the company (20:27) you know in terms of how much they’re willing to adapt. (20:31) Adaptability is the number one thing that really determines whether the company is going to you know make the changes so they can get out of their problem and move forward.

Melissa

(20:43) Now what do leaders typically learn about themselves in these moments of financial pressure?

Karl

(20:52) Yeah they you know it’s a it’s a great opportunity to learn (20:55) a number of things about your yourself when you get into a really tight situation you know I’ve (21:01) started some businesses myself so I’ve seen some of these challenges and you know you really learn (21:07) you know how resilient you are you know can you make those tough decisions can you make the changes (21:14) and how much do you want it is you know some of the things that I’ve experienced (21:19) and so you know you’re like yeah I really want it I am going to change I’m going to listen to (21:25) you know advisors and people who’ve been through this before and adapt to what I need to do so (21:32) so I can move forward you know and you know everybody’s got their limit you know if you’re in (21:38) you know whatever stressful situation everybody’s got their breaking point and you know I know I’ve (21:45) got mine but everybody’s got to kind of find out where they are and making it through those (21:51) situations like a bankruptcy or even if it’s not bankruptcy you know turnaround situation so (21:58) people will learn quite a bit and I hope you never have to learn that.

Melissa

(22:04) Absolutely now let’s talk about a little bit about capital raises you’ve worked with deals ranging from 10 million to 190 million what is the biggest mistake leaders make when trying to attract investors?

Karl

(22:19) A lot of times what I see is people just feel like I’ve got a great business and they probably do (22:28) and this is a great opportunity for an investor and then they just assume that the investors (22:35) are going to come to them or all they have to do is get introduced and the investors will (22:40) immediately understand why this is such a a good opportunity and so because that they’ve got that (22:48) assumption they don’t really prepare there’s a lot that you can do to improve your odds of getting (22:54) the funding you need ahead of the investment in terms of you know financial management having (23:02) clean documents and then it’s really a sales process and you know you may be used to selling (23:08) your product or service to your customers but selling to a bank another type of lender or you (23:15) know an equity investor that’s you know going to buy buy your stock or however the investment will (23:23) take that place but they forget over kind of overlook the fact that that really is a sales (23:29) process and we need to build you know going to build the steps and go through those steps like (23:36) any other sales process.

Melissa

(23:39) Yeah I you know it’s funny because in in the world we live in today (23:42) everybody wants everything yesterday and the company built tomorrow and so it’s really bringing (23:49) our feet on planet earth and building a strategy and a plan like you were mentioning around where (23:55) we’re trying to go so how do founders position capital as a strategic partnership instead of (24:03) kind of the attitude of rescuing or being rescued or helping them out of kind of a situation that (24:10) they’re in?

Karl

(24:11) Right yeah viewing it as a partnership is a fantastic way to think about that I love that (24:18) kind of way of phrasing it there so the you know if you make it a partnership where it’s win-win (24:26) you know it’s it’s a business marriage where you know they’re bringing capital which has value and (24:31) you’re bringing you know the the business with the customers and all the process and employees (24:38) and workers you know if you if you view it as we’re working together to move this forward (24:45) it’s so much more powerful and you know it feels so much better for the investor you know whether (24:53) it’s a lender or you know an actual you know ownership of the company then just kind of feeling (25:01) like yeah they’re just using my money and they don’t really care about me or they don’t see the (25:07) value I’m bringing so you know people make those investment decisions again whether it’s a bank (25:15) a non-bank lender or a you know equity investor so yeah people matter sales processes you have to (25:25) have to think about the people as well as just the numbers.

Melissa

(25:31) Yeah and I’ve heard a lot of times people they’re maybe the better question is what distinguishes companies that attract strong terms from those that are forced to accept unfavorable ones because they’re kind of at the nth hour or I don’t want to use the word desperate but desperate. (25:52) This episode is brought to you by Summit Ventures. (25:57) If you’re an accredited investor Summit gives you access to one of the (26:02) greatest tax advantage opportunities direct ownership in oil and gas their projects deliver (26:10) what they call the triple play cash flow equity growth and powerful tax benefits and here’s the (26:17) best part these investments qualify for 1031 exchanges that means you can roll gains from (26:25) real estate into energy while deferring capital gains to learn more and get a free white paper (26:32) oil and gas demystified just visit www.summitven.com forward slash executive connect.

Karl

(26:43) Right wow I had an entrepreneur who had a and very educated had a top-notch MBA his background (26:52) and had developed spent a year developing this software it’s really good software I was very (26:57) impressed by it you know we were talking about how we’re going to go to market and how we’re (27:01) going to get the capital he needed and you know I said okay well great well you know how long (27:06) you know do we have before you know we you just got to have this before you can have to (27:12) go get a job or something and I was expecting him to tell me you know three months six months (27:18) something in that range and he said you know yeah I’ve got 30 days (27:23) and you know I’m like well okay well you may want to work on your resume this weekend because (27:30) you’re going to need it because they’re just for the type of capital he was talking about (27:34) you know first you know early stage company there’s just no way that was going to happen (27:39) and so that’s the type of assumption that you know he had in his head is like you can get this (27:45) tomorrow you know and I mean I you know I’ve worked on you know some you know shorts and like (27:54) receivables back financing bank well bank loans usually take more than 30 days but I’ve seen some (28:00) other types of factoring and asset-backed lending that we’ve been able to get done in 30 days and (28:05) that’s still pretty quick so it’s having unreasonable assumptions just not understanding the process (28:13) is typically where it goes off off the rails and that could be anything from you know how long it (28:20) takes to what documents or what you know what type of sales process we really need to put together

Melissa

(28:26) to make this work yeah agreed I think 30 days is a real tight window we laugh but you think about (28:36) the world that we live in now I mean we can get something to deliver to our door in minutes and (28:42) everything is so quick that we’re kind of conditioned now to to want everything tomorrow (28:49) but really this this really takes you know strategy and planning and you know working through (28:55) the right fits and putting the puzzle pieces in place and that doesn’t necessarily always happen (29:01) quickly for companies and so it’s so true really giving yourself time and so I want to talk a (29:12) little bit about the book chaos feels like a great metaphor for modern leadership uh speaking of (29:20) chaos and quick now what let’s unpack the book a little bit and then maybe what mindset separates (29:30) those leaders who wipe out from those who successfully ride the wave in the world that

Karl

(29:38) we live in today right I wrote the book a couple two three years ago and the the first part of the (29:46) book is really kind of walking through how the world is fundamentally changing in a way that (29:51) we really haven’t seen since the end of world war ii like 70 years ago and so the the fact that we’re (30:00) seeing disruptions in the supply chain I mean wow over the past year we’ve seen huge you know (30:06) disruptions there with the tariffs and even before that with you know covid we’re seeing a (30:12) lot of changes in how supply chains are being handled we’re seeing uh the big baby boomer (30:20) generation retiring and the small gen z’s coming in so changing the workforce that’s changing (30:26) um minimum you know the kind of low-end wages so there’s and there’s you know some other things (30:32) I go through in terms of the world’s changing and so that change produces great opportunities (30:42) for entrepreneurs so if you’ve already got a small business lower middle market business one of your (30:50) great advantages is being able to move pivot quickly to make changes quickly and so I the (30:57) the rest of the book I kind of go through some of the things that you can do to keep on top of (31:03) what’s going on in the markets how to adjust to these changes that are happening and take advantage

Melissa

(31:09) of it so that you can sell more and make more money so what emotional disciplines influence (31:20) financial decision making and I the reason I ask that is I feel like (31:27) everybody handles financial decisions very differently whether you’re depending on your (31:33) culture if you’re a man or a woman if you’re a cfo so what are some of the disciplines that affect

Karl

(31:42) decision making in the world that we live in I love that question that’s a really good question so (31:48) the emotional part of a financial decision yeah is is often overlooked or minimized but (31:58) the bigger the decision the bigger the emotions and we all use emotions to to make decisions (32:04) if you can take a moment when you feel like wow this is a big decision you know maybe just take a (32:12) you know a little extra time maybe just sleep on it I’m not saying draw it out for weeks and weeks (32:18) that’s not what I’m advocating here it’s but take a minute sleep on it and then try and make the (32:25) decision with a little less emotion and a little bit more focus on the facts and I think when (32:34) you’re able to do that you’re able to make these significant financial decisions much more (32:41) effectively and I mean I recently helped a business owner get a new loan the bank he had (32:51) been with for various reasons suggested they move on you know the way he was growing and some things (32:58) and so we we looked at some alternate non-bank lending and a couple different options we’re (33:03) looking at both factoring and asset-backed lending and and you know we walked through (33:08) and had a discussion about what the pros and cons of each one were and he did he slept on it (33:14) and he asked a couple of his board members he’s got some investors and you know he got feedback (33:20) from the investors before he made a decision and I think he made a really good decision (33:25) you know by taking a minute sleeping on it and talking to advisors that you respect

Melissa

(33:32) oh I love that and I’m going to ask you another piggyback question on that now I think (33:36) adaptability is a core leadership capability and with the world that’s changing politics that’s (33:46) changing but as it relates to your book and you know adaptability and in business what routines (33:55) help executives maintain clarity under pressure to make the right decisions for the business is (34:03) there a specific do you recommend you know I’ll just leave that open-ended I guess yeah there’s a

Karl

(34:11) lot of levels that I think you could answer that question and you know finding like a daily routine (34:16) you know perhaps exercise or you know things like that there’s that’s one level on another level I (34:23) think having a routine of having like typically weekly management meetings with your team that (34:31) are not focused on you know hey you know tell me what happened just tell me what happened yesterday (34:36) but focused on what are the challenges we’re seeing what are the opportunities we’re seeing (34:42) and methodically going through and say let’s prioritize those and then let’s see if we can’t (34:47) make decisions on those so making the decision is the key not just having a meeting so I think that’s (34:57) a really powerful routine that I’ve seen and helped a number of companies implement that type (35:03) of discipline so those those are some of the things that come to mind immediately for me

Melissa

(35:09) that’s fantastic Carl this has been great thank you so much for being here and sharing your (35:15) knowledge with our listeners today and any final thoughts or anything that you want to leave with (35:20) them today and then please share what is the best way to connect with you and learn more about the

Karl

(35:26) good work that you’re doing I guess as a final thought there was a gentleman that would always (35:34) tell me that cash flow is more important than your mother which was always said with a little (35:46) tongue-in-cheek you know in there but he really was trying to emphasize how important cash flow (35:51) was and I always kind of smile when I think of that and so based on that you know if you’d like (35:58) to get in touch with me LinkedIn is the easiest way I’m sure the link is in there but yeah find (36:06) me on LinkedIn follow me and feel free to message me as well thank you so much for being here today

Melissa

(36:13) Carl that’s the Executive Connect podcast