In this episode of Executive Connect, host Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Dr. Michael Breus, also known as The Sleep Doctor, to talk about the true business cost of poor sleep. From lower productivity and weaker decision-making to safety concerns and rising healthcare costs, Dr. Breus explains why sleep is one of the most overlooked factors behind performance at work.

He also shares his practical five-step plan for better sleep, explains chronotypes and sleep patterns, and shows how leaders can use sleep as a real strategy to improve energy, thinking, and team performance.

If you want healthier teams, sharper leadership, and stronger results across the board, this episode may completely change the way you think about sleep.

Chapters:

(0:34) Why sleep is costing companies
(2:12) The business impact of poor sleep
(3:44) Why wellness programs keep failing
(8:56) How Dr. Breus became The Sleep Doctor
(15:24) The sleep animal system explained
(28:31) How sleep affects leadership decisions
(31:38) How much sleep executives really need
(34:33) Why sleep is a safety issue
(37:19) Why personalized sleep strategies work
(42:51) How companies can roll this out
(53:28) The five-step sleep plan
(1:00:24) Where to learn more

Michael

(0:00) So I’ve developed a five-step plan to teach people a very simple, straightforward way and almost guarantee that this will improve their sleep quality by probably 20 to 30%. (0:10) You ready? (0:11) Step number one, pick one wake-up time and stick to it.

(0:15) Step number two, stop caffeine by 2 p.m. Step number three, stop alcohol three hours before bed, limit yourself to two drinks. (0:23) Step number four is exercise daily, but stop four hours before bed. (0:27) And step number five is to do the three 15s, get 15 deep breaths, 15 ounces of water and 15 minutes of sunshine.

Melissa

(0:34) Most companies are losing money every single day and they don’t even realize why. (0:41) It’s not strategy, it’s not culture, it’s not even motivation, it’s sleep. (0:48) Poor sleep costs organizations about $2,300 per employee per year, yet leaders keep bringing in wellness speakers who offer generic advice, everyone nods and nothing actually happens.

(1:05) Employees stay exhausted, productivity stays flat and leadership wonders why there’s no ROI. (1:12) Today’s guest is here to change that. (1:15) Dr. Michael Bruce, also known as The Sleep Doctor is one of the world’s leading sleep experts. (1:23) He’s appeared on Oprah, Dr. Oz, Good Morning America with over 300 media appearances a year. (1:32) He’s also one of the only 168 people worldwide to pass the sleep medicine board exam without going to medical school. (1:43) What makes his work different is simple, he doesn’t talk about sleep theory, he helps organizations use sleep as a performance lever.

(1:53) This episode is about how to understand the importance of sleep and how it can be used to improve productivity, safety, and decision-making at work. (2:07) Welcome, Dr. Michael.

Michael

(2:10) Thanks, Melissa. (2:11) How are you?

Melissa

(2:12) I’m great. (2:13) I’m excited to talk to you today about sleep. (2:16) You say most organizations are hemorrhaging money because of poor sleep.

(2:22) What does that actually look like in day-to-day business?

Michael

(2:26) Yeah, so when you think about it, and we referenced a big study, you referenced a good study in the intro there, what we’re talking about here is something called presenteeism. (2:35) The employee is there, but they’re not really there. (2:38) They’re not listening, they’re not doing the things that you asked them to do, they’re not completing their tasks because they’re so doggone tired.

(2:47) We see it again and again and again. (2:49) It also can be safety concerns. (2:51) If you run a manufacturing business and people aren’t well-slept, you got a lot of safety concerns that can go on.

(2:57) It depends upon the industry that you’re in. (2:59) This is really big in the energy business, but quite frankly, it’s big in every business that’s out there. (3:04) Chernobyl occurred on the night shift.

(3:06) Titanic occurred on the night shift. (3:08) Some of the biggest industrial catastrophes that have ever occurred occur on the night shift. (3:14) Why?

(3:15) Because people shouldn’t be working in the middle of the night. (3:17) And then you’ve got the people in the daytime who aren’t getting good sleep at night, and those two are having some problems either way. (3:23) So it’s kind of a miracle that business even gets done half the time just because so many people are sleeping so poorly out there.

Melissa

(3:31) And I think there’s so much truth to that. (3:34) Good, I didn’t even know about the Titanic, so that’s good to know. (3:37) But why do most organizations underestimate this financial impact if we have this data?

Michael

(3:44) Well, number one, I don’t think a lot of people know about it. (3:47) I think that becomes highly problematic. (3:49) But if I’m honest with you, a lot of people just think, oh, buck up, grab a couple cups of coffee and motor through.

(3:57) They don’t really value sleep. (3:59) They don’t understand that sleep, as a matter of fact, is a major component of resilience, right? (4:04) And so if you want your employees to be resilient and bounce back after failures and things like that, they have to be well-slept.

(4:10) Sleep affects cognitive function. (4:12) So if you want your employees to be able to do the things you ask them to do, they’ve gotta be well-slept. (4:17) Reaction time definitely is affected by sleep.

(4:20) And so if you look for it, it’s literally staring you in the face. (4:24) Most people don’t look for it. (4:25) It’s like, are you breathing correctly?

(4:27) Are you hydrated? (4:28) Are you sleeping? (4:29) All of these become major, major factors, but most titans of industry, they don’t really think about it.

Melissa

(4:36) Yeah, it’s so true. (4:37) Traditional wellness programs don’t really move the needle in this space. (4:41) I think companies spend billions of dollars on their wellness programs, but leaders rarely are seeing these measurable results.

(4:49) So why do most wellness initiatives fail to change people’s behavior?

Michael

(4:53) Yeah, well, I mean, let’s take a particular initiative as an example so that everybody can kind of think through it. (4:58) Let’s take weight loss as an example. (5:00) You know, there’s a lot of companies that will do a weight loss challenge or exercise challenge or something along those lines.

(5:07) If you look at weight loss in particular, let’s see what the effects, people always ask all the time, hey, Michael, what could the effects of sleep be on my ability to lose weight? (5:16) I mean, if I’m up more, I should be burning more calories, right? (5:20) Like that’s a very common kind of idea or myth.

(5:23) Well, let me tell you exactly what happens to your body on the biology of it all when you’re sleep deprived. (5:29) So first of all, sleep deprivation is different for each individual. (5:33) For some people, it’s a quantity thing.

(5:35) For some people, it’s a quality thing, right? (5:38) Some people can get eight hours of sleep, but if it’s light crappy sleep, it’s not gonna be any good. (5:42) Some people might only get four or five hours of sleep, which clearly doesn’t work well.

(5:46) But let’s just say you know for yourself what sleep deprivation is. (5:51) Now let me explain the biology of how it affects your ability to lose weight. (5:56) So number one, when you’re sleep deprived, what happens?

(5:58) Your metabolism slows down. (6:01) Why? (6:01) Because your body says, I’m not sure why this thing is awake, but I’m gonna conserve my fuel.

(6:06) I’m gonna conserve my resources because I don’t know how long we’re gonna be up. (6:10) So metabolism starts to drop. (6:12) That ain’t good for weight loss.

(6:14) Next, appetite starts to increase. (6:17) Once again, why? (6:18) Because it’s trying to tell your brain, hey, go get some more resources.

(6:21) Go find us some more food. (6:23) We’re gonna increase your appetite. (6:24) So right now we’ve got low metabolism and we’ve got high appetite.

(6:28) But wait, it gets much worse. (6:30) Now we look at the hormones of it all. (6:33) So when you look at the hormones, specifically leptin and ghrelin.

(6:36) So you might not have to know what these hormones mean, but let me tell you what they do. (6:41) Ghrelin is the go hormone, and that has to do with hunger. (6:44) Hunger and appetite turn out to be very different when they’re inside your brain.

(6:49) When you’re sleep deprived, your ghrelin increases by 20%. (6:52) For leptin, this is the hormone of satiety or feeling full. (6:56) With that actually reduces by 15%.

(6:59) So once again, you’ve got high appetite, you’ve got high hunger, you’ve got low metabolism and low feelings of full. (7:07) That’s not the best situation for weight loss, but wait, it gets even worse. (7:12) What ends up happening is when you’re up for extended periods of time, something called cortisol is floating around your brain.

(7:19) Your body does not like having cortisol floating around your brain for extended periods of time. (7:23) So it wants to do something to tamp that down. (7:26) What’s the easiest thing to do?

(7:28) Eat a Snickers, have a muffin, have a high calorie, high fat food. (7:32) Because when you eat that, it produces serotonin, which lowers that cortisol. (7:37) So once again, when you’re sleep deprived, whatever that means for you or any of your employees are, and they’re doing your weight loss wellness challenge, because you’re trying to motivate them to be better people and feel better about themselves, they fail.

(7:50) They fail dramatically because what you didn’t bother to do is check on their sleep.

Melissa

(7:56) And it’s so true because I’m thinking about, I’ve been through so many wellness programs, even from being a child in athletic sports in school. (8:06) And I don’t ever recall sleep until recently really being discussed. (8:11) And I would argue that so many executives are all of the above and we are sleep deprived at some level.

(8:18) And it’s just kind of a cascading effect from there. (8:22) And so that’s such an interesting explanation. (8:25) And so I wanna talk a little bit about how you became the sleep doctor.

(8:29) I think your path is incredibly unique. (8:32) You passed the sleep medicine board without going to medical school. (8:38) Kudos to you for that.

(8:39) Now, how did that happen? (8:41) Ready to lead smarter and invest wiser? (8:44) On the Executive Connect podcast, we unpack executive strategies for wealth and influence.

(8:51) Hit the subscribe button now. (8:54) Don’t just watch, act.

Michael 

(8:56) So everybody always wonders, was it a bet? (8:58) No, it was not a bet. (9:00) So I’ll tell you, it’s kind of funny.

(9:02) I think people really relate to this. (9:03) I was on an interview for my first job, right? (9:06) And I had just finished my PhD in clinical psychology with a specialization in sleep and sleep disorders.

(9:13) And I couldn’t wait to have my first interview, right? (9:17) And I remember turning to my girlfriend who’s now happens to be my wife. (9:20) And I said, if they just offer me $30,000, I can afford health insurance.

(9:26) You remember when you were in that stage, right? (9:28) Where it’s like super early on in your career, right? (9:31) So I go in and I crush the interview because that’s kind of what I do.

(9:36) I’m a chatter if you haven’t noticed. (9:39) And they offer me $60,000. (9:41) They offer me full health benefits.

(9:43) I get two weeks of paid vacation, two weeks of medical leave where I can go to conferences. (9:47) They say, we’re gonna frame your diplomas, Michael, and we’re gonna give you an office. (9:51) I’m like, holy cow, sign me up.

(9:53) This sounds fantastic, right? (9:55) And he said, there’s one catch. (9:57) I said, what’s that?

(9:58) He said, a third of our business is in our sleep laboratory. (10:01) And we only have one doctor here that’s board certified in sleep medicine. (10:05) If that person leaves, our whole business tanks.

(10:08) We need you to take and pass the sleep medicine boards. (10:10) And I said, Dr. DeMarini, we got a problem here. (10:14) I’m a PhD, not an MD.

(10:16) And he said, it’s a new board, and there’s one year left where non-MDs are allowed if they have experience to take the medical boards. (10:25) He said, so here’s the deal. (10:27) You have a one-year contract.

(10:28) You pass the boards, you stay. (10:29) You fail, you’re fired. (10:32) So I went home to my girlfriend, and you know what I said?

(10:36) 60 grand! (10:37) I was like, this is awesome! (10:38) They offered me double, this is fantastic!

(10:40) And I kind of leave out that I have to take the boards part. (10:44) And towards the end of the conversation, I said, yeah, and they want me to take this board exam, whatever. (10:49) I figured it was a one-year deal, right?

(10:51) I figured, who takes the medical boards without going to medical school? (10:56) Like, that’s insane. (10:57) And this is probably one of the reasons why I ended up marrying my girlfriend, who is now my wife.

(11:03) She just looked me square in the eye, and she was like, I think you could do it. (11:08) That was what it took. (11:09) It was like, challenge accepted.

(11:12) And I called the board up, and I said, what’s the reading list? (11:15) And they said, there’s 14 textbooks. (11:17) So I taught myself neuroanatomy, neurochemistry, general medicine, the works.

(11:22) Everything but pediatrics, pretty much. (11:23) And I’m one of 168 people in the world who’ve taken and passed the sleep medicine boards without going to medical school. (11:30) So it turned out to be a really great, fun adventure to be able to do that.

(11:35) And I’ve spent my entire career in sleep medicine, for sure. (11:38) I’ve been a sleep doctor literally since that job, which was my first, up until this day. (11:44) And I’ll be honest with you, I never thought it was gonna be this fun, but it’s a lot of fun.

(11:49) It’s very cool. (11:50) My son always says it’s the greatest social hack ever. (11:53) He said, the second you walk into the room, if anybody figures out you’re a sleep doctor, like everybody rolls their eyes and walks to the bar and then hangs out with Michael because they wanna ask him sleep questions, right?

(12:03) So it’s a lot of fun. (12:05) I feel very fortunate. (12:07) I’ve got a lot of information stuffed in my head.

(12:09) I’ve been seeing patients for 26 years. (12:11) And so I’ve gotten an opportunity to see some really, really interesting things and implement programs at businesses to help them understand what’s going on with their businesses. (12:21) I developed a really cool system called, there are these chronotypes.

(12:26) It’s actually all about my chronotechnical system. (12:29) And we’ll get a chance to talk about that in a minute. (12:32) And I’ve been able to institute that in different businesses all around the world.

(12:36) Man, we’ve seen productivity gains. (12:38) We’ve seen people sleeping better, people feeling better, and everything else seems to flow along with it.

Melissa

(12:45) So much in that story. (12:47) First of all, kudos for you for taking the opportunity and embracing it. (12:52) And secondly, your wife to support you, I think behind any good thing that we do in our life is a support system.

(13:01) And so that’s such a fantastic story. (13:03) And thank you for sharing that. (13:05) And one of the things that popped into my mind when you were talking about your first job is, for me, I felt like my first job, I was similar.

(13:14) I faced some challenges with credibility. (13:18) I wasn’t fully qualified for the job, but I’m like, yep, I’m getting paid and I get an office. (13:23) This sounds good.

(13:24) And so what challenges did you face building credibility early on in your career?

Michael

(13:30) Well, the good news was is once I took the medical boards, as soon as you tell people you’re one of 168 people who’ve taken the medical boards without going to medical school in the past, everybody in the room shuts up pretty quick and is like, okay, this dude knows what he’s talking about. (13:43) But I really think it had a lot to do with my diving in and patient care. (13:48) I’ve always been a clinician.

(13:50) I’m not a researcher. (13:51) I mean, I’ve done research in my career and I’ve got published studies and fun stuff like that, but I’m a dive in the wool, work with patients kind of person. (13:59) And usually the second I opened my mouth and I started answering questions, people are like, okay, this guy has some ideas behind him.

(14:07) Let’s kind of go. (14:08) I will tell you that there’ve definitely been occasions where people have said, well, there are medical doctors who are sleep specialist, Michael. (14:16) Why?

(14:17) What makes you think that you’re gonna be any better than them? (14:20) The goal here isn’t to be better or worse. (14:22) The goal for me was to really understand a subspecialty inside of sleep, which is insomnia.

(14:28) So when you look at something like insomnia or the inability to fall asleep or stay asleep, there’s a tremendous psychological component to it. (14:35) But if you don’t understand the biology, you don’t think, hey, could this person have sleep apnea? (14:40) Could they have narcolepsy?

(14:41) What else is going on here? (14:43) You’re kind of half in and half out of the conversation. (14:46) And so for me, I think my credibility falls from my academic background, my leaning on the scientific data, as well as my clinical experience for 26 years.

Melissa

(14:57) Yeah, and it’s a really good point because I don’t think there’s a one size fits all when it comes to sleep. (15:03) You really is patient to patient. (15:05) And so having those backgrounds, I think it makes you such a good person to talk to about sleep.

(15:11) So I can understand those people that wanna get information from you. (15:15) And you’ve developed what you call the sleep animal system. (15:20) What is it and why does it work better than any traditional sleep advice?

Michael

(15:24) Yeah, so here’s what we do. (15:26) So take a step back. (15:28) I wanna tell you about a patient and how I discovered this.

(15:30) And so I was treating a woman who came in and if I’m honest with you, Mel, I failed. (15:37) I didn’t do a great job. (15:38) She couldn’t sleep.

(15:40) We tried everything. (15:41) We tried cognitive behavioral therapy. (15:43) We tried sleep hygiene.

(15:44) We tried medication. (15:46) When I failed that spectacularly, I bring my patient back in for free and I start asking question after question after question. (15:53) And I try to figure out like, what did I miss?

(15:55) Because clearly I missed some really important pieces of information. (15:59) We get about an hour into the interview and she turned to me and she said, this is when I was practicing on the East Coast. (16:04) Currently I live on the West Coast.

(16:06) She was like, you know, if I just lived in California, Michael, my life would be great. (16:10) I was like, back up, what do you mean? (16:13) And she said, well, you know, it’s three hours later.

(16:16) So she had a job where she had to go to work at be there by 7.30 in the morning, eight o’clock in the morning. (16:21) And it wasn’t working for her. (16:24) She said, if I could come in at like 10 and leave at like six, that would be perfect for me.

(16:29) I said, well, why don’t you do that? (16:32) And she said, oh, well, my husband and my kids would never, you know, handle that because I’m kind of the person who wakes everybody up in the morning and makes breakfast and gets people on their way. (16:41) And my boss certainly wouldn’t be, you know, amenable to something like that.

(16:45) And she said, and then she admitted to me something that was, you know, kind of hard for her to say, which was she didn’t feel like she was performing well at work. (16:53) She’d been written up several times. (16:55) She fell asleep in morning meetings.

(16:57) She felt like her productivity was down, like it wasn’t going well. (17:01) And she was humming down the coffee as quickly as she could, just trying to stay awake. (17:06) I said, well, can I call your boss?

(17:08) Like, you give me permission. (17:10) I’d love to talk to your boss and try something out. (17:12) And so she was like, you can try, but I really don’t think it’s gonna be good.

(17:16) So I call her boss up and I said, you know, hey, I’m working with so-and-so. (17:20) She’s giving me permission to talk to you. (17:22) Can she come in a little bit later and leave a little bit later by about two hours?

(17:26) And he stopped for a second. (17:27) He said, I don’t really care. (17:29) He said, I’m firing her at the end of the week.

(17:31) I said, no pressure, let’s go. (17:34) So this was on a Monday. (17:35) So I call him up on a Friday.

(17:36) He picks up the phone, first words out of his mouth, I got three more employees I want you to talk to. (17:43) Now I knew I was onto something. (17:45) And I said, okay, this is interesting.

(17:47) So there are people out there that genetically speaking aren’t early birds, they’re night owls. (17:54) And now let’s be fair. (17:56) Everybody’s heard of those terms, early bird and night owl before.

(17:59) Almost nobody has ever heard of what the term is, a chronotype. (18:03) So this is actually a scientifically validated term. (18:06) And we know that people, some people genetically speaking, like by the way, Mel, this is not a choice, okay?

(18:12) This is something that is in your genetics. (18:15) So we got some people who have no problems waking up at 5.30 in the morning, getting on with their day and moving and grooving. (18:23) Let me tell you something.

(18:24) The only thing I hate more than mornings are morning people. (18:27) They’re so chipper all the time. (18:29) They’re ready to go, right?

(18:30) Like, oh, leave me alone. (18:32) My gosh, I can’t even wake up to deal with you. (18:36) So there are differences here.

(18:38) And when I started to really dig into the research, what I discovered was this is genetic. (18:43) Like this isn’t a choice, okay? (18:46) And so once you start to look at the genetics of it all, then you start to say, hmm, I wonder if there are people out there who do different things better at certain times of day, like my patient.

(18:57) And so that was when I sat down and started to develop my sleep animal chronotype system. (19:03) So the reason it’s animals, people always ask like, why did you choose animals, Michael? (19:07) And I said, well, look, I’m not a bird, okay?

(19:10) I’m not an early bird. (19:11) I’m not a night owl, okay? (19:13) I’m a mammal, right?

(19:14) And I wanna be an animal. (19:16) And so I said, I wanted to choose, by the way, animals that actually represent this type of circadian rhythm. (19:23) Now, what we’re talking about here are circadian rhythms.

(19:27) These are the rhythms that run our bodies. (19:29) And they run on very predictable timetables, but not everybody runs on the same one. (19:35) Turns out we’ve always known about three.

(19:38) We’ve always known about early risers. (19:40) We’ve always known about late, people who stay up late. (19:42) And then there’s always been an idea, oh, there must be people in the middle.

(19:46) What I’m famous for is I discovered a fourth chronotype, this irregular sleep pattern. (19:52) And this patient was one of the ones who actually helped me understand what that was. (19:56) So early birds become lions, because hey, who wouldn’t wanna be the king or queen of the jungle, right?

(20:01) That’s a motivating animal. (20:03) I think that’s something that’s gonna go over well. (20:06) Night people become wolves because wolves do their kills at night.

(20:09) They’re known as nocturnal creatures. (20:12) So that kind of makes sense. (20:13) People in the middle are bears, right?

(20:15) And I’ll give you stats on what the stats are of each one of these types of people. (20:19) And then people who have this irregular sleep schedule, I call them dolphins. (20:24) Now, people always wonder like, okay, I get the lion, I get the wolf, and I even kind of get the bear, Michael, but what do you mean, dolphin?

(20:31) Why did you choose dolphin? (20:32) So it turns out that dolphins sleep unihemispherically, meaning half of their brain is asleep while the other half is awake and looking for predators while they’re swimming around. (20:42) And I was like, I think that represents my insomniacs of the world.

(20:45) And that’s really what my contribution ended up being. (20:49) And so I created something called a chrono quiz, and we started having people take this chrono quiz. (20:54) And to be clear, I’m not the only person out there who’s been studying chronotypes for years and years and years.

(21:00) There are probably close to 200 labs around the world that look at these differences. (21:05) So the big contribution was this unique kind of messed up chronotype, again, the dolphin. (21:12) And so when you look at it, as an example, if you’re a lion, which sounds like you are, right?

(21:17) You wake up in the morning, so about 4.30 in the morning, your melatonin turns off and your cortisol turns on, and then you have an extremely predictable pattern that goes on throughout your day. (21:28) I can show you the perfect time of day to drink coffee, to exercise, to be intimate with your partner, to send an email, to ask your boss for a raise. (21:38) Like, it’s unbelievable.

(21:40) And I can do it in the middle and I can do it for night owls as well. (21:43) But it turned out that there was this irregular pattern and that was the thing that started to be the most interesting to me. (21:48) So I wrote a book.

(21:49) My third book is called The Power of When, meaning when do you do something? (21:55) Because whatever time in your circadian day that you do things, my theory was, hey, just take the activity and reschedule it to the time when your body naturally is already gonna have those hormones available to you. (22:08) Why do it when your hormones are not available to you and you really don’t have a potential advantage?

Melissa

(22:14) Oh, so good. (22:16) I love that. (22:17) And yeah, I am the lion and my husband is the wolf.

Michael

(22:20) Yeah, and so that’s an interesting question, right? (22:23) Is people say this all the time. (22:24) It’s like, what if your spouse isn’t the same chronotype?

(22:28) Now, I’m gonna be honest with you. (22:30) I’m pretty lucky. (22:31) My wife and I have always both been late night people and wolves.

(22:34) When we first started dating, I’d pick her up at eight. (22:37) You know, we’d go to dinner until 9.30, go to a movie till 11, maybe go out for dessert afterward at midnight or one o’clock and that was fine for us, right? (22:45) If that was you, you’d be asleep by 9.30, right?

(22:50) That’s not gonna be fun for you. (22:52) So a lot of times we see this mismatch, if you will. (22:56) And so that’s a lot of what the book talks about.

(22:58) One of the things we did specifically was we looked at intimacy because that’s one of the things that couples eventually get around to and how does something like that work? (23:07) And believe it or not, we’ve actually been able to figure out an entire matrix. (23:11) So in my book, by the way, it’s the most read chapter in my book is what’s the best time for sex.

(23:17) And I’ve got the male chronotype across the top and the female chronotype across the side. (23:23) I’ve also created these for lesbian and gay couples because the hormone distribution can be different. (23:28) And what it turns out is specifically for intimacy because everybody always wants to know, there’s a couple of things that you can think about that sort of make a little bit of sense here, right?

(23:36) So first of all, about 75% of people have sex between 10.30 and 11.30 at night, right? (23:42) So what do you think your hormone profile looks like then? (23:46) Estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, adrenaline and cortisol, all hormones you need for successful intimacy are low and melatonin is high, right?

(23:55) Between 10.30 and 11 o’clock at night, right? (23:57) That’s hint number one as to when is the best time for sex. (24:01) Hint number two, if you happen to be having sex with somebody who was born biologically male, what do they wake up with in the morning?

(24:08) An erection. (24:09) If that’s not mother nature telling you when to use that thing, I don’t know what is, right? (24:14) And so you need to be thoughtful about these things and it’s not just sex.

(24:19) That’s the crazy part. (24:20) I can show you the specific time to focus. (24:23) I can tell you the specific time of when to drink your first cup of coffee.

(24:26) Like it’s unbelievable. (24:28) I kind of think it’s like the ultimate hack, if you will, of your body. (24:32) Now, interestingly, I know you work with a lot of companies and you talk to a lot of executives.

(24:38) I’ve had executives take this system, chronotype their entire company, and then schedule meetings based on people’s chronotype. (24:48) So in the beginning, when we were talking about this $2,300 per employee that you lose from presenteeism, we can erase that by actually moving schedules around and having meetings at particular times. (25:00) So as an example, if you’re in a business like advertising and marketing, where you have a lot of creative people in your wheelhouse, you don’t have a meeting with them at eight o’clock on Monday morning, okay?

(25:10) If you’ve ever met a creative, that’s just not their jam, right? (25:14) You wanna go Thursday in the afternoon with some chips and guacamole and a little bit of beer, and then you’re gonna have a great meeting and everybody’s gonna understand what’s going on. (25:24) And so if you can understand and play to the strengths of your employees by understanding their genetics, it works really, really well.

(25:31) And that’s the other thing that people don’t understand. (25:33) This is genetic. (25:34) I can look on your 23andMe or your Ancestry.com and I can show you, it’s an area called the PER3 area. (25:42) To be clear, there’s about 40 different areas where chronotypes come into play, but this is probably the one that if people wanna look it up is probably the best one to understand. (25:50) And I can show you exactly what your chronotype is. (25:53) Now, here’s another thing that’s kind of crazy is it changes over time, right?

(25:58) So everybody is a lion when they’re an itty bitty baby, right? (26:01) So when you’re a baby, what happens? (26:03) You go to bed really early, you wake up really early.

(26:05) Then you move into like toddler, middle school range, you kind of go in the middle, somewhat like a bear. (26:11) Then you hit adolescence, you wanna stay up late and sleep until two o’clock in the afternoon. (26:17) You’re a night owl.

(26:18) Then at about 20, 25, you kind of set your chronotype for about 40 years. (26:23) And then believe it or not, it starts to change again, right? (26:27) So if anybody is out there listening and they went to their grandmother or their mother, they said, hey, what time do you wanna have dinner tonight?

(26:33) What are they gonna say? (26:34) 4.30, five o’clock, right? (26:37) That’s because your chronotype is starting to move backwards again.

(26:41) So this is an ebb and a flow, but there’s definitely a consistent time in a person’s life where they really know kind of what I call their biological swim lane for sleep. (26:51) And that’s what I am able to identify with this chronotypical system. (26:55) Then we just push it through all the employees at a company, figure out what meetings need people at what times and where and all of a sudden the magic happens.

Melissa

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(27:42) To learn more and get a free white paper, oil and gas demystified, just visit www.summitven.com forward slash executive connect. (27:56) It’s so interesting. (27:57) I was thinking I had two questions I was gonna ask you in my brain and you answered both of them because my husband was that night owl.

(28:05) And I would argue that now he’s shifting more to this dolphin you’re talking about. (28:09) And kind of the second piece, I think about a workplace where people are chronotype aware on what a world looks like that, what a world would be if somebody who’s a creative could function when they’re at their best peak and somebody like me who’s a morning person could function at their best peak. (28:31) And so I know executives often pride themselves into pushing through exhaustion, but let’s talk a little bit about what sleep deprivation actually does to leadership decisions.

Michael

(28:45) So sleep deprivation, there’s a study that I thought was particularly interesting where if you’re a leader and you’re evaluating ideas and you’re sleep deprived, you don’t evaluate those ideas particularly well. (28:58) In fact, oftentimes you miss the hidden gem inside the idea. (29:03) Why?

(29:04) Because you’re not at your best. (29:06) You’re not thinking in the timeframe in which it makes sense for you to be evaluating these things. (29:11) I always listen to CEOs and they always stand up and they’re like, oh, I don’t sleep very much.

(29:16) I sleep four and a half, five hours of sleep and I power through it all. (29:21) Let’s take the biggest job in the world, president of the United States, okay? (29:26) Every single president, everyone doesn’t matter what your affiliation was, when they leave office, they all say the same thing.

(29:34) Worst part, sleep deprivation. (29:36) Why? (29:36) Because they know they’ve made decisions that are terrible because they were so tired, they couldn’t come up with all of the things that were going on and able to make the correct decision.

(29:47) Also, by the way, when you’re sleep deprived, your mood stinks, right? (29:51) Nobody wants to be around you. (29:52) You know somebody is sleep deprived.

(29:55) There’s studies, if we showed people pictures, same person, well-slept and sleep deprived, everybody, it’s a hundred percent that person’s sleep deprived, right? (30:05) And so what happens is you send off this vibe like, hey, don’t talk to me, I’m cranky today. (30:09) I’m not in the mood to talk with you.

(30:11) And that causes an animosity between you and your employees. (30:15) Then they don’t want to tell you things that are going on in your own business that you could be actually gaining a competitive advantage for. (30:22) So there’s just so many of them.

(30:23) Reaction time is another one. (30:25) Depending upon if you’re in a manufacturing business, you want the people on the floor to be at their top. (30:31) Otherwise you have safety concerns.

(30:33) You got people driving forklifts who are sleep deprived. (30:36) That becomes problematic as well. (30:38) And then there are even ones inherent to the business like shift work, right?

(30:43) So, so many businesses run 24 seven. (30:46) And so the people who are on the night shift, that’s where all the problems historically occur, right? (30:52) The Titanic occurred in the middle of the night.

(30:55) Chernobyl occurred in the middle of the night. (30:57) Like all of these major, major things that have gone on problematically occur when people should be asleep, but they’re being forced to be awake. (31:05) And so if you don’t take this into consideration and to be frank with you, your competitor does, they’re gonna win.

Melissa

(31:14) Yeah, and I would agree. (31:15) I think emotional regulation is so key when you’re leading big teams, you’re managing people. (31:23) If you can’t manage your emotions, you’re probably not, yeah, you’re not gonna have people that are following you.

(31:29) And so how much sleep do high performing executives actually need to be able to function strategically?

Michael

(31:38) It’s a great question. (31:39) And unfortunately there’s not a single number, right? (31:41) Different people need different amounts.

(31:43) And remember, it’s not a quantity game, it’s a quality game. (31:47) For me, I can have an executive getting six and a half hours of sleep and do great. (31:51) And I can have an executive who pushes to have eight, but they’ve been drinking 12 cups of coffee during the day.

(31:56) They’ve had alcohol the evening before and the sleep that they’re getting is so crappy that they might as well not have even gone to bed. (32:03) So you really have to think through the quality issues and not put some of these big burdens in front of you. (32:09) You went to the National Academy of Sleep Medicine, what they would say is probably somewhere between seven and nine hours is where you should be.

(32:16) But I’m gonna be honest with you, I think it’s closer to six and a half, maybe 6.15. A lot of people function really, really well on this, but they end up trying to catch up on the weekends. (32:27) This becomes problematic because it’s not so easy to catch. (32:31) It’s not like it’s a one-for-one ratio, right?

(32:33) If you, let’s say your body needs seven hours, you only get six for five days in a row. (32:37) Are you gonna sleep in for five hours on the weekend? (32:40) No, of course you’re not.

(32:42) And the biology doesn’t even work that way. (32:45) There are some simple rules that people can follow to be able to increase their sleep quality without, and by the way, it doesn’t cost the employer a dime to follow these rules, just educating your employees and doing things like that. (32:59) We even do sleep challenges.

(33:01) Like you know how there are weight loss challenges and fitness challenges? (33:04) I’ve developed sleep challenges for companies where everybody in there is taking notes, understanding their sleep, having a sleep diary, and actually getting better rest. (33:14) And by the way, we haven’t even talked about the idea of some people having a sleep disorder on top of all of this that, for example, has been undiagnosed.

(33:23) There’s a ton of undiagnosed sleep apnea out there. (33:27) Some people suffer from insomnia. (33:28) And then what do they do?

(33:30) Alcohol themselves to sleep, which basically is an anesthetist, right? (33:34) So what ends up happening, alcohol anesthetizes you. (33:37) It doesn’t make you fall asleep.

(33:39) Let’s put it this way. (33:40) There’s a really big difference between going to bed after a couple of drinks and passing out, right? (33:45) And a lot of people do the passing out thing.

(33:47) They wake up, they feel like crap. (33:49) They load up with caffeine and they start their day again. (33:52) I’m not saying you can’t do it, but what I am saying is there’s no universe that that engine is running well.

Melissa

(33:58) Yeah, and as you’re saying that, I’m thinking back to what you were saying. (34:02) Sleep isn’t just about being productive and showing up at work and doing your job, but it’s also to your point about safety. (34:09) And if you’re drinking yourself to sleep and then caffeinating up, at some point there’s a risk to that and it contributes to workplace accidents.

(34:20) And it’s something that companies should consider when they’re looking at their employees. (34:27) So how do leaders treat sleep as a safety priority?

Michael

(34:33) So I think the important thing to do is start to understand the data and then look into your business to see, hey, what’s going on in my business that could be a safety concern? (34:43) And who are the people that are in charge of whatever that area is? (34:46) So let’s say it’s manufacturing and you’re running forklifts all over your warehouse floor after you’ve produced whatever widget you’ve got, right?

(34:55) You want your forklift drivers to be pretty well slept. (34:59) Otherwise, what if they bang into something, the product falls, breaks, now you’ve got a whole problem on your hand, or God forbid, your employee gets hurt, right? (35:08) Now your employee is out for a significant period of time.

(35:11) You don’t have a backup employee for whatever that position might be. (35:14) And you’ve got all kinds of employee comp issues now that could potentially be going on. (35:20) So if I’m honest with you, sleep is preventative in many of these cases.

(35:24) Like, I don’t understand why companies aren’t getting on the sleep bandwagon earlier and saying like, holy crap, do you realize how many problems we’ve had this year? (35:33) Like, let’s take a look and see, are they on the night shift? (35:36) Are they on the day shift?

(35:37) Are they potentially due to, at least in part, some form of sleep deprivation? (35:42) Once you start digging in there and you start asking the question, it’s unbelievable how much there is.

Melissa

(35:47) Yeah, and I love this discussion because I work in the casino gaming industry, which runs 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Michael

(35:54) Let’s talk gaming, right? (35:56) So it’s super interesting there. (35:58) I mean, in many cases, like just on the gaming side of it all, let’s talk about dealers as an example.

(36:04) If your dealers are not well-slept, they miss stuff all the time, right? (36:09) If you, it’s really problematic and then they don’t even realize it, but there are people who are on the other side of the table who are very sharp, who are very interested in trying to find any leverage point that they possibly can. (36:22) Like, I mean, there are people out there that look for the sleepiest dealer around because then they’re making mistakes.

(36:28) They might be showing their cards without meaning to. (36:31) And by the way, I wanna be clear, it’s not like these people are doing this on purpose. (36:35) They’re so damn tired that they’re not even realizing some of the things that you’ve taught them to do, but they can’t remember to do.

Melissa

(36:43) Yeah, and to your point, usually when you start jobs in this industry, you get the shifts that nobody else wants.

Michael

(36:49) Oh, yes.

Melissa

(36:50) And if you’re that lion and you get the night shift, to your point, you’re going to be tired when you’re dealing at two o’clock in the morning. (37:01) And so I wanna talk a little bit. (37:04) You’ve worked with organizations like YPO, AT&T, Tony Robbins.

(37:09) Why does personalization change outcomes so dramatically like for these dealers or whoever else inside organizations?

Michael

(37:19) Well, I think there’s two reasons. (37:20) I think one on the personal level, the personal biology of it all, we help people, but also on the, my boss actually gives a crap about me level. (37:29) That turns out to be so important, right?

(37:33) When your boss comes to you and says, you know, I’m gonna be honest with you. (37:36) I feel like you might have some issues with sleep and that might be affecting your performance. (37:40) Why don’t we talk about ways, shapes and forms that you can get better rest?

(37:45) You’ve got an employee for life, okay? (37:48) Guaranteed, you have a person who says, this employer actually cares about me and my health. (37:53) By the way, they use less medication.

(37:56) So on your comp plan, you save money. (37:59) Especially if you’re a self-insured employer, right? (38:01) They use less hospital services.

(38:04) All of the things that you’re paying for as an employer actually go down dramatically if you have a well-slept employee. (38:11) And again, it’s not just about whether or not, you know, you say, oh, they’ve got sleep apnea or narcolepsy that’s one thing and don’t get me wrong. (38:19) That’s incredibly important.

(38:20) That’s the primary of what I treat. (38:22) But if they’re not understanding it from a chronotype standpoint, this is such an easy fix. (38:27) Like this is so simple to do and it has such big rewards.

Melissa

(38:32) And you know, it’s funny that you say that. (38:34) I had an employee that worked for me once who would come to work, he’d put his headphones on and he’d stick his head back like he was working with his hands on his desk. (38:44) And he was clearly sleeping for a large majority of his shift, but I’ll tell you to your point, he did not believe he had a sleeping problem until I brought him in the office and said, hey, you know, you’re sleeping most of your eight hours that you’re working.

(39:00) Let’s figure out, you know, what’s going on. (39:03) And to your point, he went to the doctor, he figured it out and he was exactly what you said, a loyal, productive employee. (39:11) But I think sometimes admitting that you have something wrong is unfortunately the hardest step.

(39:19) And so it seems so elementary, but there’s so much truth to it.

Michael

(39:24) And also I think sometimes, I didn’t mean to interrupt you, but sometimes I think employers are like, you know, that’s something you need to take care of at home. (39:31) Right, like, you know, like that’s not, I should have no responsibility for that, you know, in my employment of you. (39:38) That’s a personal issue and you should go home and you should, you know, figure that out because when you show up for work, you need to be at your right mind.

(39:46) It doesn’t really work that way, okay? (39:48) Work is a communication, work is a community. (39:51) And if you don’t have the right people who are looking out for each other and creating that common bond, it becomes highly problematic.

Melissa

(39:59) And it’s so true. (40:00) And to your earlier point, this person was a night owl, night wolf, and he was working early mornings. (40:08) It’s brutal.

(40:09) It is brutal. (40:10) And, you know, staying up, playing games and doing other things, but we found a way to balance his schedule, back to your earlier point, later, and to make sure he was getting the help he need. (40:23) And so, you know, executives ultimately care about results and how should companies measure the ROI from sleep and performance programs?

Michael

(40:33) So it’s an interesting question. (40:35) And so, you know, at the beginning, you quoted this study, $2,300 per employee. (40:39) That’s probably one of the easiest numbers that I can reach towards to show what happens.

(40:45) So $2,300 per employee per year, right? (40:49) So if you’ve got 10 employees, you are losing $23,000 a year that can be found quite easily. (40:58) But more importantly, if you have 100 employees, that’s almost a quarter of a million bucks, right?

(41:04) Like, let’s just be fair. (41:06) Like the numbers are there. (41:07) And this isn’t my research.

(41:09) This is published research. (41:10) And by the way, it was published like 15 years ago. (41:14) So it’s really interesting.

(41:15) We could look at other things, like let’s look at sports as an example. (41:18) Let’s say you own a sports team, right? (41:20) You put a lot of money into your employees.

(41:24) If they’re not well slept, higher rates of injury. (41:27) And now your entire investment is on the sideline, which is not where you want it to be, right? (41:33) And performance statistics, I’ll give you a great one looking at reaction time.

(41:37) When we look at the NBA, if somebody’s sleep deprived and they’re 22 years old, they have the reaction time of a 33 year old. (41:45) That isn’t what you want from your rookie of the year that you’ve brought onto your team to do really well. (41:50) And by the way, this analogy works for anybody that you hire, because your new hire is your rookie of the year, right?

(41:56) That’s the person that you’re bringing in to teach him about your business and then hopefully help you with your business in unique ways. (42:02) You really don’t want that person slow. (42:04) You want that person at their peak.

Melissa

(42:07) Yeah, and I would think that it would also impact the company’s healthcare costs, because when you’re not sleeping, there’s more deterioration. (42:15) And it’s not just, you know, I’m not productive. (42:17) It’s other parts of your health that deteriorate.

Michael

(42:21) Absolutely, we definitely know that there are more healthcare costs. (42:26) There’s certainly more use, for example, of antidepressant medication for people who are sleep deprived that can become problematic, but just overall usage of hospitals, of doctors, all of that comes into play when you’re sleep deprived.

Melissa

(42:40) So for organizations listening, what is a practical rollout actually look like on how to implement sleep improvement programs without disrupting the day-to-day operations?

Michael

(42:51) Yeah, so there’s a couple of different things that you can do. (42:53) What I like to do is start out with is doing a sleep challenge. (42:57) So not changing meetings around, not doing anything first, but doing a quick sleep challenge, get everybody on board, because that helps you identify who’s sleep deprived and who’s not.

(43:06) Once you understand who’s sleep deprived and who’s not, then you start to look at their chronotype. (43:11) What is the, are they a lion? (43:12) Are they a bear?

(43:13) Are they a wolf? (43:14) Are they a dolphin? (43:14) Then you can start to understand like, wow, in this meeting, we’ve got six lions and it’s at four o’clock in the afternoon.

(43:22) I wonder what would happen if I just tick that up to 11 o’clock in the morning or 10 o’clock in the morning. (43:28) And then you ask the employees themselves, you say, hey, we know your chronotype now. (43:33) We’re kind of starting to understand this a little bit more.

(43:35) What would you think of changing your meeting time from four o’clock in the afternoon to nine o’clock in the morning? (43:41) And they jump on it. (43:42) They’re like, this is perfect.

(43:43) This is exactly what I want to do.

Melissa

(43:46) And I love that because I think it’s just these little tips and tricks that help people figure out the way they sleep. (43:53) And it’s funny, you know, my husband was one of those people that denied that he had any sleeping challenges. (43:59) And I being like your wife was supportive and figuring out a solution.

(44:04) And so for him, we use things like the aura ring to measure like how he’s sleeping. (44:11) We, you know, did different things like as an engineer brain person, you know our brains tend to go late night which tends to keep us up at night. (44:22) And so we slow down a lot of the work stuff a lot of the TV stuff.

(44:28) And so for those executives that are listening are there like maybe a couple of tips of people that are kind of struggling to get to sleep. (44:36) You know, are there anything that you recommend to them? (44:38) Money Ripples is on a mission to help professionals just like you get their money working harder for you.

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Michael

(45:10) Well, there are, I think the first thing to do is we have to identify kind of what the problem is. (45:14) And one thing that I will tell you that really goes undiagnosed is something called sleep apnea. (45:19) And so this is a major medical situation that a lot of people don’t know they have, right?

(45:26) Only their bed partner has noticed, Hey, this person’s snoring. (45:29) They’ve stopped breathing in their sleep. (45:30) They gasp for air.

(45:31) Maybe they wake up with a headache. (45:33) They’re a moody cranky as my daughter used to call them a grumpy fish. (45:37) This is when she was like 10 years old.

(45:39) But you start to notice these things and it becomes very, very prevalent. (45:43) You really wanna get sleep tested. (45:45) Now I’m gonna be honest with you.

(45:47) Most people do not wanna get sleep tested because they’re afraid of the treatment, right? (45:52) So many people don’t understand this but the treatment for sleep apnea, one of the major treatments is something called a CPAP machine. (45:59) This stands for continuous positive airway pressure.

(46:01) So let’s back up for a second and explain to everybody what apnea actually is. (46:05) So apnea is a situation where your throat closes in the middle of the night and you stop breathing in your sleep. (46:11) This ain’t good on any level, right?

(46:14) Because what happens is your heart rate slows down in order to compensate for the lack of oxygen. (46:18) Then your brain says, oh crap, there’s no air and your heart rate speeds up. (46:22) So your heart rate is slowing down, speeding up, slowing down.

(46:25) You’re putting an extra load on your heart and that can cause an irregular heartbeat, something called atrial fibrillation which is very difficult to treat which can turn into stroke, death, you name it. (46:36) So there’s a lot of people out there who are not even bothering to get tested because they’re afraid of the treatment. (46:42) Now the treatment is a little mask that you wear on your nose with an air compressor by the side of your bed.

(46:48) Shoots a thin stream of just air up your nose and into that area that’s blocked and then ever so slightly opens that area up, allows air to go in and you breathe just fine. (46:57) But you gotta sleep with the mask on your face and you got a hair dryer blowing up your nose all night long, okay? (47:03) Now I wanna be very clear, I have sleep apnea, okay?

(47:07) I stop breathing in my sleep 24 times an hour and I wear a CPAP machine every single night and I’m the sleep doctor for God’s sakes. (47:15) A lot of people think that apnea is a big person’s disease. (47:19) It’s not true.

(47:20) Look, I’m five nine, I weigh 160 pounds. (47:23) Like there’s not a lot of big in me, right? (47:25) And so you have to be thoughtful of this thing and by the way, CPAP isn’t the only treatment modality.

(47:31) There are mouth guards that can be worn, there are surgeries that you can do, weight loss can help. (47:37) So there’s a lot of different things that can work in your advantage and you don’t have to be fearful of this potential treatment. (47:44) But by the way, sleep apnea isn’t the only one.

(47:47) The other biggie is insomnia. (47:49) And insomnia is kind of my area of specialty. (47:51) It’s one of the areas I focused a lot of my career on and by the way, you don’t need drugs 99% of the time.

(48:00) Now, I wanna be clear about one thing to all of the listeners out there. (48:03) If you take a sleep aid, there is no pill shaming going on here. (48:08) If you and your doctor have come to the conclusion that you need a pill to help you sleep, that’s okay.

(48:13) That’s not what I’m talking about. (48:15) What I’m talking about are people who’ve been on pills for 15, 20 years, right? (48:20) Who may or may not need to be on there.

(48:22) And look, if you have a major mental health situation, like if you’re a paranoid schizophrenic, you get your Ambien, okay? (48:28) Like that’s just how that works. (48:30) Or God forbid you get into a motor vehicle accident and you have pain, you get your sleeper.

(48:35) But for the vast majority of people out there, I mean, let’s be fair. (48:40) You knew how to sleep when you were younger. (48:42) You didn’t have to take a pill then.

(48:44) So why don’t we figure out some way, shapes and forms to have you naturally be able to sleep better? (48:49) Also, if I’m being super duper honest with you, almost all those pills have some pretty significant side effects. (48:56) Some of them can actually bring on Alzheimer’s, which is a pretty serious situation.

(49:00) So we really want to use them in as sparingly way as possible.

Melissa

(49:05) No, and I absolutely agree. (49:07) I think it’s finding the solution that works for you and trying a couple things. (49:12) It’s like anything else, right?

(49:14) Weight loss is not a one size fits all. (49:17) And so exactly what you were saying, trying some things, getting some support, even asking your employer to start later if you need to and having those dialogues.

Michael

(49:26) And so- And you know what? (49:27) I want to double tap on that for a half a second because recently I’ve had some interesting conversation with employers about specifically GLP-1s, right? (49:37) So this is, for folks who don’t know this, this is the miracle drug that lets everybody lose weight and seems to do everything for everyone.

(49:44) And so I’ve been asked, hey, are GLP-1s the new CPAP? (49:47) Like, is this going to fix my apnea? (49:49) I’ll be honest with you, it might help, but the likelihood that it is going to fix a structural problem that’s going on in your throat or in your nasal cavity is highly unlikely.

(50:01) In fact, I think there’s going to be data coming out in the coming years, because remember, the GLP-1s, you lose fat, but you also lose 50% muscle and there’s muscle in your throat. (50:12) There’s muscle in this entire area. (50:14) And if that becomes damaged or less useful, you’re going to have some pretty significant problems in the long run.

(50:20) So what I tell people all the time is be thoughtful, okay? (50:24) This is, there’s no easy way around something like this. (50:27) Go to a doctor, specifically a sleep specialist, somebody who has been board certified, trained in sleep and sleep disorders to help you figure out if indeed you have a problem.

(50:38) Now, to be fair, I’ve spent the last 10 years of my life not treating sleep disorders, but treating disordered sleep, which is this whole idea behind chronotypes. (50:48) When people don’t sleep within their kind of chronotypical swim lane, they get light crappy sleep and you might as well have narcolepsy or sleep apnea or one of those other things, because you’re not where your body needs to be, right? (51:01) And so I think that becomes important.

(51:03) And then another area I think is really important is the equipment that you use to sleep. (51:08) What am I talking about? (51:09) Mattresses, pillows, sheets, all of these things actually make a difference.

(51:15) The analogy that I like to use is one of exercise. (51:17) So I used to be a big runner and I could run a race in flip-flops with the boombox on my arm, but my time wouldn’t be too good, right? (51:24) But if I’ve got my Asics on and my dry fit wear and some good tunes going on, I might be able to peel off an eight and a half, nine minute mile for an old guy like me would be pretty damn good, right?

(51:34) Because equipment matters. (51:36) And the same holds true with sleep. (51:37) Let me tell you something.

(51:38) If you sleep on a bed that costs you 600 bucks, you ain’t getting good sleep. (51:43) And I’m not trying to be obnoxious about this. (51:45) For some people, $600 might be a really expensive bed, but you wanna get the best equipment that you can afford that fits your body.

(51:54) This is an investment in your health, right? (51:57) And I’m not just talking about your work performance and things like that, because you’re gonna work for a certain number of hours a day or a certain number of years, and then you’ve got the rest of your life to live, right? (52:07) We want that life to be productive.

(52:09) We want you to be a community member. (52:12) We want you to be somebody that gives, not that takes from the community. (52:16) The only way you’re gonna do that is with good sleep.

Melissa

(52:19) And I love that you said that, because there’s so much truth to that. (52:22) If we sleep eight hours a day and there’s 365 days a year, that’s a lot of hours in our beds. (52:31) So let’s put our money in sleeping where it’s comfortable.

(52:36) And I love that you said that too, because one of the simplest tricks that we did for my husband was use hypoallergenic sheets, because when he was sleeping on, he was allergic to some of the sheets.

Michael

(52:51) All the time, all the time. (52:53) And I’ve even found like detergents as well. (52:56) Like sometimes we’ll find a detergent that somebody might have some type of allergy to, causes a mild amount of congestion at night.

(53:03) Now they’re snoring, they’re not getting enough air. (53:05) And all you had to do was change to a different detergent. (53:08) Like I’ve literally cured people from changing detergents before, right?

(53:13) It can come down to something that’s that simple. (53:16) Now, to be fair, it seems like, holy cow, Michael, there’s a lot to this sleep thing. (53:20) Like it feels a little bit on the overwhelming side.

(53:22) Like I don’t kind of know where to start. (53:24) Like what should I do first? (53:25) What should I do next?

(53:26) Things of that nature. (53:28) So I’ve developed a five-step plan to teach people a very simple, straightforward way. (53:33) And by the way, feel free to share this with your employees.

(53:36) This is a great way, and I can almost guarantee, unless they have an underlying sleep disorder, that this will improve their sleep quality by probably 20 to 30%. (53:44) You ready? (53:46) Okay, so step number one is to wake up at the same time seven days a week.

(53:53) No sleeping in on the weekends, okay? (53:55) Now you notice I didn’t say bedtime, all right? (53:57) I did not, I said wake up time.

(53:59) Why? (54:00) Because bedtimes are tough, right? (54:02) All kinds of things happen.

(54:04) Kids, sports, TV, you know, life happens a lot. (54:08) But you can set an alarm for when you’re gonna wake up. (54:11) And by the way, if you know that that alarm is going off at let’s say 6.30 in the morning on Saturday, you’re not gonna stay up until 2.30 in the morning on Friday night, because you know that you’re gonna self-metric, and now you’re playing the game correctly, right? (54:27) So keeping that, and by the way, there’s biology here too, which is really interesting. (54:31) When sunlight hits your eye in the morning, there’s a special cell called the melanopsin cell, which sends a signal to the back of your brain to turn off the melatonin faucet in your head. (54:40) But it sets a timer for exactly 14 hours later.

(54:45) So if you wake up, let’s say at six in the morning, at eight o’clock that night is when melatonin turns back on. (54:51) Takes about an hour and a half for it to get up and in. (54:53) So now 9.30, you’re starting to feel tired. (54:55) By 10 o’clock, you’re starting to fall asleep. (54:58) This changes for lions. (54:59) Lions, that whole schedule is earlier.

(55:01) Wolves, that whole schedule is later. (55:02) Right now we’re kind of talking about the bears, but you notice what I said. (55:06) The time at which you wake up directly affects when biologically speaking, your body becomes sleepy.

(55:13) This is the easiest fix. (55:14) If people take one tip from this entire conversation, it’s wake up at the same time seven days a week. (55:22) That’s step number one.

(55:23) Step number two has to do with one of the biggest offenders of sleep, caffeine. (55:28) You wanna stop caffeine by about 2 p.m. at the latest. (55:32) So most people don’t know this, but caffeine has a half-life of between six and eight hours.

(55:36) A half-life, by the way, is the amount of time it takes your body to metabolize 50% of the caffeine in your system. (55:43) So if you stop at two, eight hours later is 10, at least half of the caffeine is out of your system. (55:48) You should be able to at least begin to fall asleep and stay asleep.

(55:52) But for my insomniacs, I have them, if they can, eliminate caffeine, but if they can’t eliminate caffeine, bring it where you’re only having it from let’s say nine to 10 in the morning, maybe to 10, 30, then you stop there because what we don’t wanna have is any caffeine on board. (56:07) But as a general guideline, step number two is to stop caffeine by 2 p.m. The third one has to do with alcohol. (56:14) We mentioned it briefly before, but let’s be fair.

(56:17) Alcohol destroys stage three, four sleep. (56:21) Stage three, four sleep is your physical restoration. (56:24) It’s also where something called the glymphatic system comes in and scoops out these proteins that accumulate in your brain during the day.

(56:30) When you have proteins that continue to accumulate, they have a tendency to wrap around the nerves of your brain. (56:36) That’s called Alzheimer’s disease. (56:39) Be very clear, when you drink alcohol, you are affecting the stage of sleep that helps prevent Alzheimer’s disease.

(56:48) So drinking yourself to sleep is probably the stupidest idea in the face of the earth. (56:53) And so look, it’s so funny, Melissa, when dry January comes around, all my patients do better. (56:59) All of them, they’re like, you know, because I’ll say, oh, you’re participating in dry January.

(57:04) Like, oh yeah, we’re gonna do that. (57:05) I’m like, how’s your sleep? (57:06) And they’re like, you know, Michael, it’s actually a lot better.

(57:10) But I’m not a teetotaler, right? (57:12) I’m not gonna say that no alcohol at all. (57:14) You can have a glass, maybe even two, but let me give you a system that will work for you and make a lot of sense.

(57:19) So let’s say you’re having dinner at 6.30, 7 o’clock, order your first glass of wine, have it, then have a glass of water because you wanna balance every alcoholic beverage with a hydration beverage. (57:31) Now you order your second glass of wine. (57:33) Maybe you finish it, maybe you don’t.

(57:35) You’re done, have your second glass of water. (57:38) Now you wait three hours until lights out, hopefully based on your chronotype. (57:42) By the way, in the book, we teach you what the chronotypical times to drink are.

(57:46) That makes it easier to metabolize alcohol. (57:48) Now you don’t have nearly the effect on you that you once did. (57:52) So the big take home here is step three, stop alcohol three hours before bed.

(57:57) Now I’m a big exerciser. (57:59) I think you might be as well. (58:01) And it really is something that helps me not only manage my stress, but also really helps me with my energy level.

(58:07) But if you exercise too close to bedtime, you increase your core body temperature and it makes it really difficult to sleep. (58:14) So step number four is to exercise daily. (58:17) You don’t have to run a marathon.

(58:18) I’m talking like 25 minutes of cardio here, but don’t do it within four hours of bedtime. (58:23) The last tip is one for mornings because you gotta remember, you should start to think about sleep right after you wake up in the morning time. (58:34) So what I have people to do is what I call the three 15s.

(58:38) So that is take a hardback chair and sit outside in the sunshine and you take 15 deep breaths. (58:44) This is merely to bring your body present and kind of wake up your respiratory system. (58:48) In between each deep breath, I want you to drink one ounce of water because by the way, sleeping in and of itself is a dehydrative event.

(58:56) You lose almost a full liter of water every single night just from the humidity in your breath. (59:02) And getting 15 minutes of direct sunlight is exact amount of time that your body needs to produce vitamin D. (59:09) Vitamin D is a circadian pacemaker.

(59:11) And this whole thing helps remove melatonin from your brain because melatonin can’t be produced in sunlight. (59:17) So brain fog goes away. (59:19) So in summary, step number one, pick one wake up time and stick to it.

(59:24) Step number two, stop caffeine by 2 p.m. Step number three, stop alcohol three hours before bed, limit yourself to two drinks. (59:31) Step number four is exercise daily, but stop four hours before bed. (59:35) And step number five is to do the three 15s, get 15 deep breaths, 15 ounces of water and 15 minutes of sunshine.

Melissa

(59:44) That is fantastic. (59:46) Thank you so much for sharing and repeating those tips because I was wondering myself, it’s funny, my friends often give me a hard time about step one because I am religious with my times that I wake up no matter what. (1:00:03) And they say, well, one hour is not different, Melissa.

(1:00:07) So for those people that wake up, it is, right?

Michael

(1:00:10) Yeah, your friends are wrong.

Melissa

(1:00:12) Yeah, I agree. (1:00:13) I’m like, well, if I go to bed or if I wake up, an hour later, it’s gonna affect the whole flow of everything. (1:00:20) So I keep to my time.

(1:00:22) I love that you said that.

Michael 

(1:00:23) That’s awesome.

Melissa

(1:00:24) And now I have it on record. (1:00:26) So I’m sending them all this video. (1:00:28) Thank you so much for being here.

(1:00:31) Sleep really isn’t a perk, it’s a wellness bonus and it’s a performance strategy. (1:00:39) And so for leaders who want healthier teams, better decisions, real returns, what’s the best way for them to connect and learn more about the good work you’re doing?

Michael 

(1:00:50) So I’m on every social media you could possibly imagine as the sleep doctor. (1:00:55) So feel free to reach out. (1:00:57) I also have this thing called a chrono quiz.

(1:00:59) So if you go to chronoquiz.com and we’ll put that in the show notes, you can learn what your chronotype is and be able to get in touch with me that way. (1:01:06) Or, you know, swing on over and send me a direct message and you might be surprised on LinkedIn, I’m there all the time. (1:01:13) I’ll probably answer.

Melissa

(1:01:15) Thank you so much for being here today and sharing your knowledge and your time and your big energy with us. (1:01:22) That’s the Executive Connect podcast.