Why does retirement feel more like a threat than a reward for today’s leaders?

 

Executives are living longer, staying sharper, and still want to contribute but the traditional retirement model was never designed for this reality. In this episode of the Executive Connect Podcast, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Anne deBruin Sample, CEO of Navigate Forward, to unpack why retirement has become a broken system for modern leaders and what a better next chapter actually looks like.

 

They explore why organizations are losing critical wisdom, how forced exits damage both leaders and companies, and what purpose-driven transitions can look like when done intentionally. This conversation reframes retirement as a transition, not an ending, and offers a new way to think about legacy, flexibility, and meaningful work later in life.

Chapters:

(2:30) The History and Failure of Retirement

(5:30) The Rise of Unretirement

(8:00) Purpose vs Leisure in Later Careers

(10:15) Succession vs Transition Mistakes

(13:00) The Wisdom Drain Companies Ignore

(16:30) Mentorship and Knowledge Transfer

(19:30) Designing a Meaningful Next Chapter

(22:00) Identity, Community, and Letting Go

(26:00) Reframing Retirement as a New Beginning

(30:35) Final Thoughts and How to Connect

Anne

(0:00) Yeah, it’s a tough spot. (0:02) I mean, organizations want to make sure they’ve got the right leaders for the future. (0:06) They’ve got people who are ready to move into jobs.

(0:08) My favorite is, you know, I have a lot of people who’ve come to work with us and let’s say they’re in their 60s. (0:14) And the first thing they say to me is, I don’t know what I want to do when I grow up. (0:17) And I do have to remind them that they actually are grown up, but it’s a, it’s just a confusing time.

Melissa

(0:23) Retirement for people in their thirties sounds like a dream, but for leaders in their fifties, it sounds like a trap. (0:31) Today on the executive connect podcast, we’re unpacking why retirement has become a dirty word. (0:37) And more importantly, why it no longer fits with the way we want to live, work, and lead.

(0:44) If you still got energy, wisdom, and a desire to make an impact, but feel like you’re being gently nudged towards an exit. (0:52) This episode is for you. (0:54) The world has changed and it’s time.

(0:56) Our ideas of retirement are caught up. (1:00) Welcome today. (1:01) And thank you.

(1:03) So glad to be here. (1:06) Now talk to me a little bit. (1:07) You’ve worked with leaders who are decades into their career, still sharp, still motivated.

(1:13) And yet the word retirement doesn’t sit right for them. (1:17) What’s behind this disconnect?

Anne

(1:20) Yeah, not only does it not sit right with them, it outright scares them. (1:25) Retirement was a super attractive concept to people who are earlier in their career, but it gets less compelling as people get closer. (1:33) And you know what, the whole history of retirement is, I do think it’s important to go back to the history.

(1:38) I’ll do two seconds of a history lesson, but if you think about it, you know, retirement was started in 1935. (1:45) And at that time, the life expectancy was 61. (1:50) And so it was started as social security net, it was started to do lots of things.

(1:53) But today people are living much longer. (1:55) The retirement model is broken. (1:58) And people are terrified because they’re not done adding value.

(2:01) They want to continue to add value. (2:03) They want to continue to be part of their community. (2:06) And the concept of having worked, you know, incredible number of hours a week, and now they’re going to go to the beach or go to the golf course is just not, it’s not good for human beings.

(2:17) There’s tons of research that it’s bad for your health. (2:20) It’s bad for your mental health, your physical health. (2:23) One of my favorite authors, Derek Coburn wrote this book and he said, you weren’t put on this planet to work really hard in a job you hate for 30 years.

(2:31) So you can sit around and do nothing for 30 years.

Melissa

(2:34) Oh my gosh. (2:35) So well said. (2:36) It’s interesting.

(2:37) I love that you said that because it’s so true. (2:40) We’re living longer. (2:42) And I know like, and this is not a podcast about death, but a lot of my leaders and family members who did exactly what you just said, after they retired, they passed away shortly after.

(2:54) And so let’s talk a little bit about the reality that executives and leaders are facing today as they retire. (3:03) So talk to me a little bit about, you know, I see a lot of leaders being pushed out or being asked to make room for younger people that maybe aren’t as experienced, you know, with their role. (3:16) So what are you seeing in these moments?

(3:20) Are you seeing that leaders are quietly asked to get out of the way? (3:24) Like, talk to me a little bit about this complexity of where we’re living today in the workforce. (3:30) Ready to lead smarter and invest wiser?

(3:34) On the Executive Connect podcast, we unpack executive strategies for wealth and influence. (3:40) Hit the subscribe button now. (3:43) Don’t just watch, act.

Anne

(3:45) Yeah. (3:45) It’s a tough spot. (3:46) I mean, organizations want to make sure they’ve got the right leaders for the future.

(3:51) They’ve got people who are ready to move into jobs. (3:54) And our clients come to us in a couple of ways, but a lot of them are sponsored by a company because they’re making a change. (4:00) And what I would say is those people have had a lifetime of situations where somebody tapped them on the shoulder, said, here’s what’s next, but they haven’t had the time to think.

(4:11) So they feel really confused. (4:14) My favorite is, you know, I have a lot of people who come to work with us and let’s say they’re in their 60s. (4:20) And the first thing they say to me is, I don’t know what I want to do when I grow up.

(4:25) And I do have to remind them that they actually are grown up, but it’s just a confusing time. (4:30) And I think organizations are trying to do the right things by developing new talent. (4:34) But what they’re not thinking about is the wisdom drain and the folks that they may be pushing that they actually really need both because of the labor market demographics and because they need the wisdom.

Melissa

(4:46) It’s so true. (4:47) And it’s funny that you said, what do I want to be when I grow up? (4:50) I feel like in the world today, people are having so many career changes and pivots and they were doing this and now they’re doing that.

(4:58) I forget the metric, but there was some crazy metric about this current generation of leaders on how many times they’re going to change a career in a job that they’re not going to really spend enough time being experts at anything. (5:11) They’re going to have a little bit of everything.

Anne

(5:13) Before they move. (5:13) Yeah. (5:14) Although, you know, what’s interesting is the people that are closer to retirement age have made fewer moves.

(5:20) So the other thing to think about is for this group, it’s actually really scary because they haven’t, you know, if you think about my kids, if you think about folks that are earlier in their work career, they’re making changes all the time. (5:33) And so it’s fascinating because there’s this, there’s a giant unretirement movement. (5:38) People are retiring and about 30% of them are then going back to work.

Melissa

(5:43) Yeah. (5:44) I hear that a lot. (5:45) My parents are guilty of that themselves.

(5:47) So what’s changed and why did, why does it matter in today’s world? (5:51) Is it a mindset shift? (5:53) Is it a demographic shift?

(5:56) Is it, you know, technology? (5:59) What’s, you know, the math is adding up. (6:02) Like a lot of people I know right now were, you know, in a role for a while, they retired and they put in, you know, four people that were the price of their one salary.

(6:12) So talk to me a little bit of why, what’s changed and why should we should care about it today?

Anne

(6:18) Yeah, well, it’s really all those things. (6:20) I mean, the first is people are just aging has totally changed, right? (6:23) People are living much healthier lives.

(6:26) There are you know, this idea of what you can do at what age is being completely reframed by people’s personal wellbeing and by what’s happening with there. (6:36) The other thing that’s crazy is the demographic shift because we’ll see more employees exit the workforce than we do enter it this year. (6:45) It’s the very first time in our country’s history that adults 65 and older are going to outnumber people 18 and under.

(6:52) So there’s this incredible shift in the aging of America and those folks actually still need services, but the workers to fill the jobs, there really aren’t enough of them. (7:01) And so there’s also just, there’s a demand for the need and people are, and just the fundamental aspect of technology and aging has folks wanting to work longer.

Melissa

(7:13) And part of me wonders like how much of this is actually financial planning to retire and how much is this is like purpose planning for our lives. (7:24) And so talk to me a little bit about, you know, when you’re 65, you’re going to retire, but now they’re reverting back. (7:32) Is it because they don’t have the money?

(7:33) Is it because they’re bored? (7:36) Is it like, why are they returning back?

Anne

(7:39) I think you hit it on the nose when you said purpose. (7:42) There are absolutely some people, so let me just admit from a privilege standpoint, I work with people who generally are doing this because of purpose. (7:50) There are certainly some people, because we changed the whole retirement scheme in the US, there are people who don’t have the right savings and who financially have to go back.

(7:59) What I’m seeing though, and as I talk to leaders, what I’m finding is it’s a financial decision. (8:05) It is absolutely about purpose and it is their need to have a purpose and be contributing in that way. (8:12) And they have to, there’s a really fascinating study that was done about people who chase purpose or people who chase happiness.

(8:18) And so the funny thing is if you’re chasing happiness and thinking it’s golf course, beach, whatever it is, chasing happiness is actually, it does horrible things to your body from a health standpoint. (8:29) You really need to be focusing on purpose. (8:32) And that’s the, when you think about what people are looking for, that’s why they’re coming back.

(8:37) Purpose and connections.

Melissa

(8:40) Yeah. (8:40) And it’s funny. (8:41) I think about when I was coming up in the workforce, I feel like the way I’m taught or instructed to lead younger generations is very different than how I was trained and brought up.

(8:57) So I guess the question is, are younger generations changing the way older leaders think about contributions to the workforce? (9:06) They definitely are.

Anne

(9:08) I think younger workers tend to have a more balanced approach. (9:12) They’re actually teaching other generations different ways to think about work and think about how to put it in the right priority in your life, which I think is part of what’s actually creating people’s awareness that although people want purpose, they don’t have to stay in the same role they were in. (9:31) They can do something different.

(9:33) And I know there’s been so much conversation about the gig economy and how it’s going to be driven by the younger generation. (9:40) My personal theory is the gig economy is going to be completely driven by boomers. (9:45) It’s going to be people who want to continue to contribute and they realize there’s a way to do it fractionally.

(9:50) They can do it as a mentor. (9:51) They can do it. (9:52) So I’m watching a huge number of our clients make decisions to find roles, like I said, where they can still contribute, still live their purpose.

(10:00) They may or may not be those full-time corporate roles and I think they’re learning it from the younger leaders they’re working with.

Melissa

(10:06) Yeah, I agree. (10:07) I totally agree with that. (10:09) And I know you’ve said companies are obsessed with succession, but ignore transition.

(10:15) I love that. (10:16) Unpack this for me.

Anne

(10:18) Well, I think companies spend, and I’m a former HR person, so I understand the notion of getting somebody ready to leave, having your next person. (10:27) And so I think the focus is always on developing that individual. (10:32) But what people don’t think about is the transition itself.

(10:35) I mean, you talked about it. (10:36) It’s when somebody leaves and they end up hiring three people to fill their role. (10:41) And so what companies haven’t spent enough time thinking about is how are we going to effectively transition knowledge, leadership capabilities, wisdom?

(10:49) I think there’s a perfect space to think differently about people who are leaving. (10:54) I mean, we tend to think about it as, okay, somebody’s hit a specific age. (10:58) They’re ready to go.

(10:59) We need to make a change. (11:01) I go back to, I remember working with this leader who was amazing. (11:05) He’d hit his numbers every year.

(11:08) And he looked at me as he was getting closer to the end of his career and he said, Ann, you need to help me because I don’t know how to not do this. (11:16) And I’m pretty sure you need me for this business to do well. (11:20) And so the idea of phased exits, setting people up as mentors, setting up consulting engagements.

(11:27) I mean, companies just aren’t thinking about the things they need to do on the transition side. (11:31) They’re really focused on who they’re developing for the role, which is very important, but they miss the transition side.

Melissa

(11:38) I so agree. (11:38) I think about every single role I’ve ever had, um, for over 20 years plus of being in the workforce. (11:45) And I don’t think I’ve had any transition ever.

(11:48) I think people would say, okay, well, you’re a really good. (11:51) Now you’re going to be a really good leader. (11:53) And I was an engineer and they’re like, okay, you figured out how to engineer this stuff.

(11:58) Now go lead these people. (11:59) And I’m thinking, and nobody ever transitioned me in my career. (12:04) So talk to me a little bit about what a good model would look like for handling transition.

Anne

(12:10) Well, absolutely. (12:12) You know, there’s a, there, there’s lots of good, there’s lots of good thinking on this, but I do think it’s about, you know, for the person coming in, as you’ve said, I love how we throw people into people leadership and think it’s natural. (12:24) Um, it, it absolutely isn’t.

(12:26) And so companies need to be thinking about the right ways to develop those skills. (12:30) But as I said, the person who is moving out of the job, um, they know, they know really important pieces of information that person has to have. (12:39) And so there’s a whole, um, you know, we support onboarding people into new roles and you really need to help that person coming in.

(12:46) Think about, um, you know, a piece of it is being successful and understanding how to do the job, but they’ve got to understand who they’re working with. (12:53) They’ve got to understand their team, got to get their bosses, new expectations. (12:57) So there’s a, there’s a lot of ways to do it really well.

(13:00) Most companies, unfortunately, aren’t taking the time to do it.

Melissa

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(13:46) Just visit www.summitven.com forward slash executive connect. (13:55) I find it really interesting. (13:57) I just left a job of almost 14 years and nobody did a brain dump of 14 years of me leaving a job.

(14:04) And the people that stepped into the role are like, how did you do all this? (14:09) Well, I had a system and had that organization said, Hey, can you brain dump how you did this? (14:18) I think it’d be very helpful for the people that had to step in and do what I was doing.

(14:23) So I’m curious to get your perspective. (14:25) If you think part of the problem is HR or HR policies, or are we just stuck in the old way of doing things?

Anne

(14:35) I think, well, I personally think it’s, I think we’re really stuck in the old way of doing things. (14:41) And I think we assume that when somebody is leaving, that they don’t have a desire, you know, there’s just this assumption that they’re not going to hand off the information they’re going to, people think of it as hoarding. (14:51) And I find most people who have built a legacy and who had made, who have made contributions, they want to leave that information behind.

(14:59) Now, sure, the next person is going to do it differently and do it their own way. (15:02) But the amount of information that is lost. (15:05) And that’s the thing that worries me about as all these people approach retirement age and companies start really thinking about successors and pushing people to move out.

(15:15) I think the brain drain is going to be incredible.

Melissa

(15:18) I agree. (15:19) I think back to my early years, you know, I was green out of college. (15:23) I had the knowledge, but I never put, put the knowledge to practical work to work.

(15:28) Right. (15:29) So, but the people that came in that have been doing this job for 30 plus years, they’ve seen all the mistakes. (15:35) So when I came out, you know, from engineering school and I had to go build something, it looked great on paper, but then when you actually built it, it was completely different.

(15:46) And so I really think that there needs to be this pairing up of, you know, junior people that are fresh out of school or new to the role with the people that have the historical knowledge to do things. (15:59) And I’ll never forget. (16:00) I think back to a story and back in the day where I, I was trying to build something, but it worked on paper.

(16:07) And I’ll never forget one of the men that took me out in the field and said, you think you’re going to put that drawing on the side of that mountain? (16:15) And I looked at it. (16:17) I’m like, yeah, actually, definitely.

(16:19) No. (16:20) Now, but it was his, it was his foresight to see that he had me take that piece of paper and he drove me out to the job site and he said, show me how to make that work on that Hill. (16:36) And so it’s those kinds of experiences that really make the difference for younger people that are coming up.

(16:44) And he didn’t tell me the answer, right? (16:46) He made me go figure it out with his guidance. (16:50) And so let’s talk a little bit about that on how we can, you know, bring people with the experience together with people that are new, because there’s no, like, there was no documentation that this man had, or, you know, there was no notes or cliff notes to how he had all these, you know, 50 years.

(17:16) He was, you know, one of those people that went back after 65, but he taught me something in a week’s worth of work that took him 50 plus years to learn. (17:27) Like, how can we set that up for people in their career?

Anne

(17:31) Well, I think there’s a, and I think it works. (17:35) It’s funny because it’s, I, some of it’s going to happen naturally because you’re going to have this group of people that are leaving the workforce and want to add value. (17:43) And you’re going to have people coming into new jobs that have the need for that.

(17:47) And so in my mind, it’s, you know, some of it is those old outdated notions of people saying, well, if you retire, you’ll lose your pension. (17:55) Well, people aren’t on pensions anymore. (17:57) They’re on, you know, the whole scheme changed behind it.

(18:00) So you can think differently about how to do it. (18:03) But I think that when I look at the mentorship programs, when I look at round table programs, when I look at the ways that I think a huge number of folks that have this wisdom, if they can’t do it inside their company, they’re going to either hang up a shingle, or they’re going to sign up to be a mentor. (18:19) And there are some incredible mentoring organizations.

(18:21) I think mentoring is the most important thing that we can be doing to build that leadership capability. (18:27) Those are the people that walk you to that hill, right? (18:29) And say, how are you going to do that?

(18:32) And you don’t need somebody telling you it can’t work, because then you’re going to just dig in and fight harder for why it will. (18:37) You need somebody who’s going to do what that individual did for you and just kind of take you to the situation, let you have you help think, you know, have you think about it.

Melissa

(18:47) You’re spot on. (18:48) I was just, as you were saying, I’m thinking, I’m like, gosh, every career transition I’ve had, or every new thing I’ve done, every time I’ve had somebody that was mentoring me, whether it was somebody that I asked for help, or it was an organization I leveraged, it’s so key. (19:06) It cuts down your learning curve in a way that people don’t realize.

(19:11) So I love that. (19:12) I want to pivot to kind of what we started with. (19:16) What do executives and seasoned leaders really want in their next chapter in their careers?

(19:25) So what does this next chapter look like when it’s done right for leaders that are at the tail end of their career?

Anne

(19:34) You know what? (19:35) It’s about having a plan. (19:37) It’s about, you know, the thing is that I think when it happens suddenly is when it tends to go badly.

(19:44) And so the more planful people can be, so that they are really thinking about what next looks like. (19:50) I always say don’t jump into it. (19:51) Like, you don’t have to, you have to have a plan that you could alter once you try it and experiment with it.

(19:56) But the key is helping people tap into what’s important to them. (20:01) And oftentimes they just haven’t taken the time to sit back, think about what’s important, and think about how to spend their time, because life has happened to them. (20:11) And so we really think it’s about being planful.

(20:14) It’s about building the right skill set. (20:16) Then you have to, you have to figure out how you’re going to market yourself if there are things you want to do. (20:21) You know, there’s a ton of people in their next chapter that are going to go do board work, but they’ve got to make sure they figure out how do I set myself up to serve on a board.

(20:29) There are people who want to mentor, but they don’t know what’s available. (20:32) And so I think being planful and starting with what’s important to you. (20:36) We tend to work with people on this idea of you’ve got a pie chart, like your life used to be, you know, a huge piece of it was work, a little bit of time for sleep, a little bit of time for family, what did it look like?

(20:47) And helping people think about how they can realign that and what their encore looks like is really fun work. (20:53) But I think it’s hard for somebody to do by themselves. (20:56) And so I think it comes back to the concept we just had of mentoring.

(21:00) I think human beings are meant to figure out problems with other human beings. (21:04) So I think finding somebody you can trust to work with to help you answer those questions is really important.

Melissa

(21:11) It’s interesting. (21:12) I think about the leaders I know that are in their later half of their career. (21:17) One of the key things they’re looking for is meaning at the later end of their career and really paying forward.

(21:26) Like I find that everybody that I know personally right now that’s 65 or older is looking for that legacy, meaning what am I leaving behind? (21:37) But they want flexibility in that as well. (21:40) Like they don’t want to work late hours anymore.

(21:45) They don’t want to work 15 hour days, 20 hour days. (21:49) They want flexibility and they want to leave a legacy. (21:53) So I’m curious, do you find that leaders want to slow down or do they simply want to shift into a different type of challenge like a board seat or kind of these other things you were speaking?

Anne

(22:08) Yeah. (22:08) I think they want flexibility because they likely haven’t had the kind of flexibility this can give them. (22:16) But there’s no question.

(22:17) Like I said, they’re scared that that flexibility is going to leave them bored with nothing to do. (22:23) And so the important thing is digging in on that concept of purpose and figuring out what’s next. (22:30) And it’s often really lofty.

(22:32) I mean, I loved, I had a conversation with somebody recently who was leaving a job and he said, he came in and he said, Ann, I really need your help. (22:41) I want you guys to help me figure out what I’m going to do next. (22:44) And I know, you know, and he was talking broadly about what it is.

(22:47) And so I was pulling the thread and he said, yeah, I need to make sure that I save this planet. (22:52) It needs to be here for my grandkids. (22:55) And he’s like, and I could go get a shovel and I could, he goes, I’m not talking about, he goes, I can find volunteer work.

(23:00) I need you to help me think about what I can personally be doing to really make a difference here. (23:06) And so it’s just so much fun for us to work with somebody like that. (23:10) And, and he’s thrilled because what he’s really focused on is making that difference, but he does have a lot more flex in his life.

Melissa

(23:19) I love it. (23:20) And I would consider myself like a very curious person. (23:24) So every time I’ve pivoted or done something different, you know, curiosity has been at the forefront of any new next chapter.

(23:31) And I love kind of this new next chapter for people that are over 65 or over 70 with technology and AI and, you know, really getting curious about using this technology versus being scared of the technology. (23:48) And so I want to shift gears and talk a little bit about the emotional side of letting go and retiring, you know, leaving a big role and leaving kind of something that’s been comfortable is really, it’s a big shift. (24:05) It’s a big step.

(24:06) It kind of leaves this hole in our, like our identity, I’m going to say. (24:11) So how do you help leaders shift kind of this emotional side and letting go of that part of their life that they no longer are going to be living in?

Anne

(24:21) Yeah, it is a huge reframe effort, right? (24:24) It causes people to step back. (24:26) And so we, I love the notion of going through a discovery process where you get somebody to really sit.

(24:32) And from a self insight standpoint, think about what they did to bring value. (24:36) Think about what they want to be doing, recognize that they can do it differently. (24:40) And so we find it’s through a lot of dialogue.

(24:43) As I said, find a partner, find somebody who can help you do that. (24:48) There’s this incredible study about the importance of connections. (24:51) When you were talking about people’s health, Harvard did a study and what they found is when people retire without a plan and without having done the emotional work on what’s next, the planning part is important.

(25:03) But the other thing they really miss is connection. (25:07) It’s community, it’s people. (25:09) And so you have to have a plan for not only what you’re going to do, but who you’re going to do it with and being thoughtful about how you’re going to spend your time.

(25:17) And then it can be really fun if you set it up in the right way and you encourage people to really test and learn. (25:24) It’s like any big change, you don’t know what you’re going to like. (25:28) So have a framework and then go talk to people that are doing that.

(25:32) Try it. (25:34) Put your consulting shingle out, see what you can do. (25:38) And so in my mind, the emotional side of it is it’s the experience of helping people to understand that their identity is not their profession.

(25:46) It’s helping them to understand more broadly where their anchors are and then helping them to think about what they want to do next. (25:52) So I don’t know if that gives you enough, but it’s a…

Melissa

(25:55) No, no, it does.

Anne

(25:56) You have to think of it as a… (25:57) You have to shift your thinking to the opportunity rather than what you’re losing.

Melissa

(26:01) Yeah. (26:02) So just reframing this transition as liberation versus loss or fear. (26:09) But I find it interesting, when I’ve just switched between a full-time job to a new role, that in-between, I’m like, did the day go away?

(26:18) I find that the days slip away. (26:20) It disappears, right? (26:21) Yeah.

(26:22) They disappear if we don’t really have them organized and planned. (26:26) When we have jobs, we have to start at this time. (26:30) And so we’re preparing to be ready to go and we get into our day.

(26:34) But is there a practice of journaling? (26:38) You mentioned community that help leaders get into this identity shift. (26:45) Is there a practice that you teach them?

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Anne

(27:35) Yeah, there is. (27:36) And the funny thing is, I can probably use the word journaling with you on this podcast. (27:42) If I use the word journaling with a lot of leaders, some of them would just completely object to that concept, right?

(27:49) So we frame it around the frame that people are used to, which is almost a homework assignment. (27:57) Okay, let’s capture, let’s ask the right questions and ask you to really capture your thoughts in writing, which a lot of these leaders haven’t done. (28:07) And so if you can reframe it as a structured homework assignment that has a path that makes sense, we find that helps people travel the path.

(28:18) I always recommend, I mean, this is a great time in life to start meditating. (28:22) It’s a great time in life to try other wellness techniques. (28:25) People need to be taking care of their body and their mind.

(28:28) And so we’ll really lean in pretty holistically.

Melissa

(28:32) And I feel like it’s rediscovering this next phase of yourself and this next stage once you shift out of that. (28:41) I feel like in corporate America, a lot of us are like fight or flight all day. (28:44) We’re putting out flyers.

(28:46) We’re on everything.

Anne

(28:46) Absolutely.

Melissa

(28:47) And then when we step out of that, it’s more like that whoosh release of, I don’t even know what it is, endorphins, emotions. (28:56) So it’s really, I would think that it’s finding new joy in their life, like getting up, getting ready, getting going. (29:03) I’m going to try meditation, try journaling, try to mentor, like trying all these different shoes on once the pressure kind of lifts from this kind of fight or flight time.

Anne

(29:18) And being comfortable trying them on, and they may not be the right shoes. (29:22) Fine. (29:22) Throw them away.

(29:23) Try another one. (29:24) And I think that’s the, it’s the bounty of opportunities that actually almost causes people to freeze up. (29:31) And so if you can structure it and say, just try these couple of things.

(29:35) You know, the other thing that’s really amazing is when somebody is getting close to, (29:40) you know, as they’re starting to think about retirement, sometimes it’s their, (29:43) we actually just runned up to work with them and their spouse, because their spouse is a (29:46) little terrified of what’s going to happen with this person with, who’s been in full-blown, (29:51) you know, fight or flight mindset comes, comes home to my peaceful place. (29:56) And so you really have to think about those, you have to think about relationships as well.

(30:00) And you have to think about how that’s going to work because it is, you know, somebody wants to try to create those endorphins and that feeling in their daily life. (30:07) They’re going to find out those around them may not want that.

Melissa

(30:11) Well, it’s so true. (30:12) I think about if you’re, you know, a married couple and you both go away to your jobs and then you have like that morning and that evening time together, and now you’re both home all day together. (30:22) It’s like, gosh, get a life or get a job.

(30:25) Right? (30:25) Like, so let’s, I’m curious if we could rewrite a narrative around retirement for leaders today, what would it be? (30:35) And what would it sound like?

Anne

(30:37) I think we need to lose the concept of retirement in some ways from our lexicon. (30:41) We need to help people think about when you’ve been working in a full-time role, what is the right transition to move into a new stage in your life where you’re going to add value and purpose, do it in a different way with new flexibility. (30:55) I truly think the concept of retirement is just broken.

(30:59) And I think we need to find new words. (31:01) I think we need to find, we’re going to need that. (31:05) We’re going to need that wisdom and the information that the generation that’s starting to think about leaving corporate America has with them.

(31:12) And if we lose it, we’re going to be sunk. (31:15) So in my mind, it’s much more about a transition and a transfer of wisdom, giving people the opportunity to do new things and think about it as a new beginning rather than an ending.

Melissa

(31:26) I love that. (31:27) So the one phrase or mantra that you would leave with the leaders for their next chapter is just a new beginning. (31:34) Yes.

(31:35) I love it. (31:36) Sounds so great. (31:38) And any final thoughts or any other things we didn’t touch on that you want to leave with our listeners today?

Anne

(31:48) I think I would just encourage people because I do think there is a tendency for people to completely hold on to their thinking about what’s next and not share it with anybody inside their organization, not share it with, you know, people have this constant fear of becoming a lame duck or having a conversation about their transition. (32:14) And I think they’re shortcutting inside their organization. (32:17) They’re not giving people the chance to think a little differently about what they want to do.

(32:23) So I don’t think we’ve talked about that, but I think to the extent people can feel comfortable and let folks know that they think they’re ready for something that looks different and they want the organization’s help figuring out what that is. (32:36) I think the more honest dialogue we had about that, the better we would be able to plan those transitions.

Melissa

(32:43) So well said. (32:44) I love it. (32:44) Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and time with our listeners.

(32:49) What’s the best way for them to learn more about what you do and connect with you?

Anne

(32:55) I’d love to have folks connect with me. (32:57) I’m lucky enough. (32:58) I was a HR person for years, led HR at a number of organizations, but today I’m the CEO at Navigate Forward.

(33:05) Our specialty is working with leaders who are making these kinds of career transitions. (33:09) So we offer career transition support, legacy planning for those people that want to plan for life after corporate, and board readiness support. (33:18) We’ve got tons of content on our website, so you can find out more about our services at www.navigateforward.com.

(33:26) There’s also so many books being written on this topic, some great speakers and great programs that are being developed by universities. (33:34) There’s other providers who are supporting mentoring, and we’d love to connect people with those resources. (33:40) So I hope they’ll feel free to reach out.

Melissa

(33:43) Thank you so much for sharing that. (33:45) Reach out to Ann. (33:46) That’s the Executive Connect podcast.