In this episode of Executive Connect, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Debra Nutton, Gaming Hall of Fame inductee, former Executive Vice President of Casino at Wynn Las Vegas, and one of the few women who broke into dice dealing on the Las Vegas Strip in the early days. Debra shares the hard-won lessons that shaped her career, from earning credibility in male-dominated rooms to leading through crisis, layoffs, growth, and reinvention. She also opens up about coaching, authenticity, the danger of ego, and why the best leaders build people, not just results.

This episode is for leaders who want to earn trust, lead with heart, and create impact that lasts long after the title is gone. Press play before your ego starts calling itself leadership.

Chapters:
(0:01) Breaking barriers on the Strip
(4:24) Earning trust in the dice pit
(8:57) The job that changed everything
(16:47) Leading through layoffs and uncertainty
(20:22) The traits great leaders share
(25:40) Coaching without giving the answer
(32:49) Redefining success later in life
(39:51) The elephant story and women
(47:06) Why paying it forward matters

Debra

(0:00) The biggest thing I think that gets in anyone’s way is ego. (0:05) Because none of this is ever about us, or how we look, or what we make, or what our style, you know, all of it. (0:15) Because people start to say, well, they have a better office than me.

(0:18) They make more than me. (0:19) I have a girl, a lady that I coach, who wanted to quit her job because they wouldn’t give her the title she wanted, yet they gave her a bigger race than she thought she’d ever make. (0:29) And I said, wow, that is ego-talking like I can’t believe.

Melissa

(0:33) Today’s episode is about strength, but not the kind most people think of. (0:38) It’s about leadership, the kind built over decades, in rooms where you had to earn your place over and over again. (0:47) And today’s guest has lived at the highest level.

(0:51) Deborah Nuttin started as a dice dealer on the Las Vegas Strip at a time where there were very few women in that role, and worked her way up to become the Executive Vice President of Casino at WIN Las Vegas. (1:08) She’s a gaming Hall of Fame inductee, a coach, and someone I’m proud to call my friend and mentor. (1:15) And today, we’re not just talking about her journey.

(1:19) We’re pulling out the lessons, the decisions, the leadership patterns, and actually the kind that creates a trajectory. (1:26) And yes, we’re getting into the elephant story, because that might just be the most important lesson of all. (1:34) Welcome, Deborah.

(1:36) Hi, Melissa. (1:37) Nice to see you. (1:39) You too.

(1:40) Now, I want to start at the beginning for our listeners, because your story does not follow traditional path. (1:47) You started as a dice dealer on the Strip at a time where there were very few women in that position. (1:55) Take us back there, and what did that environment demand of you, and what did it teach you early that most leaders never learn?

Debra

(2:05) So women were only allowed to deal on the Las Vegas Strip starting in 1976. (2:12) Very few women dealt craps. (2:14) I had great friends that were crap dealers.

(2:16) They made really good money. (2:18) I’d gone to college to be a nurse. (2:20) It was a lot of work, and it was hard.

(2:22) And I’d watch my friends come home with cash every day. (2:26) And I thought, I want to come home with that cash every day. (2:30) And you know, we know that when someone tells you, but women can’t deal this game.

(2:34) So the story at the end of 1979 is that women couldn’t deal craps. (2:40) And the reason women couldn’t deal craps is you have to bend over a crap table. (2:44) And what I was told, and many other women in 1979 were told, is bending over a crap table would ruin your ovaries.

(2:52) You’d never be able to have children. (2:54) And you laugh, but men tell these stories, all right, because they don’t know why we can’t do a job. (3:00) Why are veil carriers called male men?

(3:02) Because women can’t carry the bag. (3:04) Why are firefighters called firemen? (3:06) Because women can’t carry the hose, right?

(3:08) So there’s a story for why a female can’t do every job. (3:12) So the story for why women better not go in the dice pit is because we’ll never be able to bear children. (3:18) Well, here I have a nursing degree, four years of college.

(3:21) And I said, I don’t think bending over that table is really going to do me. (3:26) And so I think I’m going to go for it. (3:28) I went to school to be a crap dealer.

(3:30) And to get a job on the Las Vegas Strip, in those days, you did what’s called an audition. (3:37) You would put on a white shirt and black pants, and you would go to the casino. (3:41) This is before cell phones.

(3:43) This was really a time where we had beepers, and you would page people overhead. (3:48) So if you did your pre-homework, you knew who the casino manager was. (3:53) You’d pick up a house phone, and you’d call.

(3:55) And then in those days, I’m 23 years old. (3:59) I sound like I’m 15. (4:01) I look like I’m 12.

(4:02) I’m short. (4:03) I’m tiny. (4:04) And they would come to see me mostly to tell me, you can’t do it.

(4:10) You’re wrong. (4:11) You can’t do it. (4:12) Every now and then, I would get an audition.

(4:14) But that was mostly to show me how bad I was. (4:18) And trust me, I was pretty bad. (4:20) I had no doubt.

(4:22) I finally got an audition, and I got a job. (4:24) And I think it was a mercy hire, because I don’t think I was very good on the audition. (4:28) But anyway, I got the job, and I knew immediately.

(4:33) We all have those days where we’re in a situation where we think, if I ever ran this place, I would do it so differently. (4:41) And the minute I walked into the casinos and the dice pit, I thought, man, I would do this so differently. (4:47) So in my mind, I said, one day, I’m going to run it.

(4:51) And I was very careful. (4:52) And we know this. (4:53) We know our place, and we know our lane.

(4:55) Don’t get too cocky. (4:57) Don’t get too far ahead of yourself. (4:58) Don’t share your true vision with others, because they’re going to tell you how dumb you are and why you shouldn’t do it.

(5:03) But I just stayed quiet. (5:05) I just did what I was told. (5:07) There were lots of rules for us, and lots of different bosses that would tell you.

(5:11) An example, there’s a bet in dice called 27 across, which means you’re going to use all the numbers. (5:17) And one boss would tell me, you stupid. (5:19) Of course you start at the 4 and work to the 10.

(5:21) And another boss would say, of course you don’t start at the 4 and work to the 10. (5:25) You start at 10 and work to the 4. (5:26) Didn’t matter.

(5:27) What we learned quickly was, you do one way for Bob, one way for Joe, and another way tomorrow when Bob changes his mind because you’re still stupid. (5:35) Just do it all, right? (5:37) Do it, do it, and shut your mouth.

(5:39) I did it. (5:40) I worked as a dealer for two years. (5:43) And the Sands Hotel, which sits in the spot where the Venetian and Palazzo are today, had changed hands.

(5:49) And they were hiring. (5:50) And I walked into the Sands, and I asked to be a craft dealer. (5:53) And they said, no.

(5:55) But they said, we’ll make you a box person. (5:57) They called them boxmen, but I changed the name to person. (6:00) I’m 25 years old.

(6:02) The box person is in charge of the craft table. (6:05) And I thought, all right, I’ll do it. (6:08) Well, at 25 years old, the youngest craft dealer in the Sands was probably 40.

(6:14) The average was probably 55. (6:16) They’d been dealing at the Sands since it opened in the late 50s, early 60s. (6:21) They knew more than I would ever know about this game.

(6:25) They were really tough on me, but they were fair. (6:31) One boss, not so fair, but most of them were fair. (6:33) And it took me a while to get them to understand that this 23-year-old isn’t going to go away.

(6:39) We’re not going to scare her out the door. (6:41) She’s here to stay. (6:42) She might be better than some because I didn’t talk too much.

(6:47) I didn’t ask a lot of questions. (6:48) I just tried to just not cause, you know, you don’t want to take up too much air in a room, right? (6:54) So I tried to stay good.

(6:56) The rules weren’t always fair as they pertained to me, but I would go home and I would think to myself, does it really matter? (7:02) Does this really change the game? (7:04) And does everything have to be fair?

(7:07) And again, I’m the only female in the dice pit, much younger than everyone. (7:12) Took me a while, but eventually they started to like me. (7:17) I married a gentleman that worked there.

(7:19) I got pregnant. (7:20) I’m going to be the first pregnant person in the dice pit in the history of the Sands. (7:26) I remember going to my boss and in those days, they didn’t have to allow you to work when you showed pregnancy, they could make you leave.

(7:35) So I told my boss I had been really sick. (7:38) And so I explained to my boss that there’s nothing wrong with me, but I’m pregnant. (7:42) And he said, I’ll allow you to work all the way through, but you have to dress right.

(7:48) So we know as women, we knew that meant we’re not going to wear that shirt that says baby with an arrow, right? (7:54) Now there are tons of options for pregnant ladies on what to wear, but there weren’t a lot of options, but thank goodness I’m small. (8:02) So I could buy suit jackets bigger and just alter them a little.

(8:06) I was poor. (8:07) You know, you don’t make a lot of money as a boxer. (8:09) So I couldn’t afford a lot of suit jackets, but I did the best I could like most of us, right?

(8:13) And you don’t want to overinvest in clothes. (8:16) I stayed at the Sands for eight years. (8:18) I worked my way from box person to pit manager.

(8:21) So box to Florida pit. (8:22) When I worked at the Sands, I would look across the street and they were building the mirage. (8:27) And I told myself, all I want to do is work there.

(8:33) You talked about your church service today. (8:35) So I would have these conversations, please God, if you give me anything in life, I want to work there. (8:42) So when it was time to put in applications, I put in my application.

(8:46) I went to my first interview. (8:48) I thought it went pretty well. (8:49) I got called for a second interview.

(8:52) I felt like it went pretty well. (8:53) I got called again to come in for a job offer. (8:57) I got the job offer.

(8:58) I was going to be a pit manager in the dice pit on swing. (9:01) I left there again before cell phones. (9:04) I went to a payphone and I called my husband and I said, they just changed our lives.

(9:09) And the truth for me and my career, that job opening the mirage changed my life. (9:16) I would tell you that the 10 years prior to the mirage, it mattered if I was a female. (9:21) It didn’t matter when we opened the mirage.

(9:24) We’re super busy, do the job. (9:26) We don’t care if you’re male or female. (9:28) Now we had a casino staff and table games of 27 pit managers.

(9:33) That would never happen today. (9:34) There have been so many budget cuts over the years, but 27 pit managers, six shift managers, and two casino leads. (9:41) I was the only female on the opening team, but I was always treated fairly.

(9:47) No one cared. (9:48) I ran a dice pit on swing and those days of it being different were over. (9:54) But same token, if we’re working 11 days, no one cares that you have a three-year-old at home either, right?

(9:59) Or no one cares that your three-year-old was up all day and you didn’t sleep. (10:03) And I get it, right? (10:04) We all get it.

(10:04) We want to be treated fairly so we understand what that fairness looks like. (10:10) I worked two years at the mirage and they promoted me to a shift manager. (10:14) The company owned the golden nugget.

(10:15) I went to the shift manager position at the nugget. (10:18) First time in that company that a female held that role. (10:22) Eventually, Treasure Island opened in Las Vegas.

(10:24) I went to Treasure Island as a shift manager. (10:26) I stayed there until Bellagio opened back to the mirage as a shift manager. (10:31) Eventually, back to the golden nugget as a vice president.

(10:34) It was in my time at the golden nugget. (10:37) I was called into a meeting of the vice presidents and we were told that MGM put in a bid to take over mirage resorts. (10:46) And I thought to myself, this will never happen.

(10:49) Steve Wynn will never let this company go. (10:51) He built it. (10:53) I’ve been here since the beginning.

(10:55) It won’t happen. (10:55) And it happened in no time at all. (10:57) Within a few weeks, the company was taken over by MGM.

(11:01) I got a call from Bill Holmbuckle, who was the president of MGM Grand. (11:05) And he asked me to come to work for him at MGM. (11:08) He and I had worked together at the mirage.

(11:10) I stayed at MGM as the VP for 12 years. (11:14) I went through the terrorist attacks of 9-11, laying off 25% of my staff, the economy downturn of 2008, some really tough times. (11:24) Towards the end of my time, I wanted to make a change within the company.

(11:28) I went to Bellagio and really wasn’t comfortable. (11:32) I think that my time was up. (11:34) I didn’t know my time was up, but I just knew that I wasn’t the happy girl I had once been.

(11:39) I decided to quit MGM and go to work for Wynn Resorts. (11:43) I felt like Steve Wynn and his company were really good to me and that they opened the first doors for me. (11:49) And I knew I wasn’t going to work forever because I didn’t want to work quite as hard as I was working forever.

(11:55) So I knew I could sign a decent contract with Wynn. (11:59) I could make decent money. (12:01) And I went there as the executive vice president of casino operations.

(12:04) It was a fabulous five years when I was ready to kind of step back. (12:09) They let me stay on for another 18 months and just open their property in Boston, Encore Boston Harbor. (12:17) That led to an opportunity for me to do the same thing for Resort World in Las Vegas, which is fun to open a property.

(12:24) And now I work strictly as a coach and a consultant. (12:28) I was on the board of directors of every until they decided to go private and kick me off. (12:33) But it’s been a great career.

(12:35) And I look back and none of us get there without a ton of people helping us. (12:41) And I always had a ton of people help me.

Melissa

(12:44) Ready to lead smarter and invest wiser? (12:47) On the Executive Connect podcast, we unpack executive strategies for wealth and influence. (12:54) Hit the subscribe button now.

(12:56) Don’t just watch, act. (12:58) I love that. (12:59) I think there’s so much in what you shared.

(13:01) And I think, one of the things I’ve learned in my career, similar to you, I was the only woman in a lot of the seats I was in is earning the credibility for the room and not asking kind of for those special privileges or the special things because you’re a woman and just showing your peers, you can do the hard work, you can do the grit, you can do what needs to be done. (13:26) And I hear that really through and through what you’re saying is you earned your credibility, you earned your place and you were respected through your entire career. (13:36) And so I’m curious to ask, what did you learn from reading the people on the casino floor?

(13:42) I think there’s a lot that you’re dealing with on a casino floor. (13:46) You’re in a 24 hour industry, people from all over the world. (13:51) Talk to me a little bit about kind of the environment and the advantages that you had in disguise.

Debra

(13:58) It’s funny when you call them the advantages in disguise, because that’s exactly what it is. (14:02) Because when I first took my very, forget the box position, right? (14:06) But when I moved on to floor and pit, people would tell me, I’m little, I’m female, I dress like a girl, I act like a girl, like really all of that.

(14:18) And people would say to me, you need to harden up a little bit. (14:22) These people are going to eat you up. (14:24) So you need to harden up.

(14:26) And I thought, no, I think I need to, I just need to be authentic. (14:30) My first answer when, if someone goes to ask me for something, I start with, yes, I’m looking for a reason to say yes. (14:39) And this is mostly related to employees, right?

(14:41) And people would say, oh, you know, they’re going to take advantage of you. (14:44) They don’t. (14:46) And we’re not stupid.

(14:47) We realize that if we can say yes, and we do it, and then they keep coming back again, that eventually the answer is no. (14:54) I do what I can for you, but you can’t also be abusive. (14:58) When you talk about learning to kind of read the room, I think first is know yourself.

(15:04) Ego can never be a part of any interaction because it’s never about ego. (15:09) It’s always about the other person, right? (15:12) And humility, humbleness, all of that.

(15:16) They say in the military, soldiers eat last. (15:19) I believe in that. (15:20) Or not soldiers, executives, whatever the word is in the army, but sergeants eat last, whatever it is.

(15:29) I believe that because I think when we go in and we expect special treatment because we’re the boss, we’ll get it, but not because we earn it, but just because our title has it. (15:39) I always wanted to earn it. (15:41) And I truly believe I did.

Melissa

(15:44) Yeah. (15:45) And I love that. (15:46) It’s one of the things kind of that I admire most about you and I’ve experienced personally with you.

(15:53) I think you have always been intentional about lifting others up, sharing your gifts. (16:00) You don’t just lead, you build people. (16:02) And I think, you know, I’m not, I don’t believe it always gets taught.

(16:07) You know, I came from the opposite place in a sense where I was, I wanted to be authentic, but I was in environments with leaders who did not want that. (16:18) So I masked up. (16:20) I didn’t, you know, be that, you know, authentic feminine person.

(16:24) And so the older I got, I had to unpack it more. (16:27) And so I love, you know, you telling that story. (16:31) I think there’s so much in that.

(16:33) So walk us through kind of, you know, your thought about investing in people and how it translates into, you know, business results for companies. (16:45) Where do leaders get it wrong right now?

Debra

(16:47) One of the best lessons for me was really 9-11, because we didn’t know what we didn’t know, right? (16:53) All we knew is there are no planes in the sky. (16:56) There are no customers walking in the door.

(16:59) And how do we survive? (17:01) And we as workers in a casino are looking for guidance, but they don’t have any guidance either. (17:07) My president doesn’t have any guidance.

(17:09) We don’t know. (17:10) We’re kind of going day by day, right? (17:12) There was a point where they came to me and they said, they’d waited almost two weeks, but they said, this isn’t going to let up.

(17:19) So we’re going to have to do staff reductions. (17:21) So you’re going to have to lay off 250 people in your department. (17:27) I’d only worked for MGM for six months.

(17:29) One of the reasons MGM wanted me is the dealers were in the middle of a union election. (17:35) They didn’t trust management. (17:36) They’d had seven leaders in seven years and they didn’t think that management did right by them.

(17:42) So they wanted to go union. (17:44) Dealers in Las Vegas weren’t union. (17:45) And MGM said to me, and kind of that, those female soft skills, one of the reasons they wanted me is they wanted to make sure I kept the union out.

(17:56) I felt comfortable with that because I know I can represent you better than an outsider. (18:01) I felt very good about that. (18:03) But here I get this curve ball that I’m going to lay off 250 people.

(18:07) I knew I had to do it a hundred percent right, a hundred percent fair and a hundred percent transparent. (18:15) So they had to be able to see. (18:17) And this is before computers where you could log on and see everybody’s seniority and who was back and who wasn’t and everyone’s skill.

(18:25) You couldn’t do it. (18:26) So we tried to create as much of that without having that as possible so that people knew if Debbie brought back Melissa, it’s because Melissa’s hire date was higher than mine. (18:38) Or if Debbie brought back Melissa, it’s because Melissa deals four games that I don’t deal and they needed those skills.

(18:46) It took me three years to get everybody back to work and on the shifts they were before the terrorist attacks. (18:54) But in those three years, I earned their trust. (18:57) They knew I had their back.

(18:59) They knew if I said it’s black or it’s white, that I was never lying, that it was. (19:05) They knew if I said you’ll be back by Tuesday, you would. (19:09) But I also knew that in Vegas, typically if a husband works in casinos, so does the wife.

(19:16) And if one’s out of work, there’s a chance the other one was. (19:19) So I knew we had to be honest and get it right. (19:23) But we did.

Melissa

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(19:51) Just visit money ripples.com forward slash secrets and enter the promo code E X E C. (20:01) Yeah. (20:02) And it’s, it’s interesting because you’ve seen thousands of people come through the various organizations that you’ve worked for, whether it’s entry level frontline management executive.

(20:15) So what patterns did you start to notice and who actually rises and who does not rise within the organization?

Debra

(20:22) Intelligence wins every day, right? (20:25) So intelligence is huge. (20:26) Honesty is huge.

(20:28) Humility is huge. (20:31) Um, I worked with people in my career. (20:34) I worked with two gentlemen when I went to win that are as good as any people I’ve ever worked with on this planet.

(20:41) One of them is now the executive vice president. (20:44) One of them is who I brought a senior VP, but they, they have it all. (20:48) They’re the complete package.

(20:50) But when I talk about humility, there were times where they would write up things that I would present. (20:58) I never take ownership of anyone else’s work, but their work was so great that I, I didn’t doctor their work. (21:04) I didn’t touch their work.

(21:05) Their work was flawless. (21:07) That’s what gets you to the top. (21:09) The biggest thing I think that gets in anyone’s way is ego because none of this is ever about us or how we look or what we make or what our South, you know, all of it, because people start to say, well, they have a better office than me.

(21:27) They make more than me. (21:28) They’re tied. (21:29) I have a girl, a lady that I coach who wanted to quit her job because they wouldn’t give her the title she wanted yet.

(21:35) They gave her a bigger race than she thought she’d ever make. (21:38) And I said, wow, that is ego talking. (21:41) Like I can’t believe.

Melissa

(21:43) You know, it’s interesting. (21:44) I think that’s the key to, right. (21:46) You know, I often think, you know, a leader is a tough responsibility.

(21:51) And I think a lot of times when we kind of don’t take the eagle ego out, it can be very difficult. (21:59) Like we want, all want the nice office. (22:01) We all want the pay, but when you’re leading people, like you were saying earlier, sometimes you eat last, sometimes you don’t even eat.

(22:08) And so I find a lot of people’s character is kind of noticed, you know, when, when no one is watching. (22:18) And so what are great leaders do differently when nobody is watching?

Debra

(22:22) But great leaders don’t talk about themselves, right? (22:25) So when you talked about it, if someone were to come and say, I haven’t had a day off in 15 days, they don’t need the leader to say, well, I haven’t had one in 20 because it isn’t about you, the leader. (22:37) If someone comes and says, and it happens all the time, I can’t work these hours at my children, this, or whatever the story is, they don’t want to hear that you have a story too.

(22:47) No one cares that you have a story. (22:49) So your stories, that’s why you go home and you talk to your dog or your husband or your kids or somebody else, but you don’t, you don’t lay it off on the people you work with. (22:58) And you make sure that things they teach you in coaching, which I think would serve anyone well in business is show up and choose to be present.

(23:09) People would say to me, Debbie, I tried to get your attention, but you didn’t look at me. (23:14) Well, sometimes you’re walking in the building and you’re thinking 10 minutes ahead of yourself, or you’re thinking two hours ahead of yourself, and you’re not looking right. (23:21) And you’re not looking left, but all people want is 10 seconds of eye contact.

(23:26) So, you know, they’re there. (23:28) The other one they say to you is don’t be attached to outcome. (23:32) And I was so guilty of this because players will come and players can be vigilantes.

(23:39) They want to tell you that things were wrong because you might give them money back, or you might give them something. (23:45) And I would so not want to hear the story because I figured that the motive was freebies, that I wanted to just get to the freebies. (23:54) Like, how can I make it right?

(23:55) I’ve got this. (23:56) How can I make it right? (23:57) And sometimes they just want the 10 minutes to complain and the freebies don’t matter as much as the time.

(24:03) So I realized if you’re in front of me, I owe you the time it takes for you to tell your story.

Melissa

(24:10) I agree. (24:11) I think, you know, it’s sometimes just listening in leadership, right? (24:16) It’s just listening to people vent and be heard and treat them like a human, right?

(24:23) I think, you know, fast forward to kind of COVID. (24:27) I saw, you know, a lot of fearful people were in a world with war, with inflation, with all kinds of things politically. (24:37) And I think we don’t know what other people are dealing with in their lives.

(24:41) We don’t know what stresses they have or responsibilities they have. (24:45) And so just, you know, hearing them out and, you know, understanding what they’re up against and seeing if we can’t meet in the middle, like maybe they have a conflict that, you know, they need to come to work later. (24:57) Maybe they need to leave earlier and seeing if we can still get the job done in the role, but be a little bit flexible people.

(25:04) I find people when we treat them like humans, they work for and with you better than when we treat them very transactional. (25:13) And so, you know, you’ve spent decades working at that highest level coaching, leading, you know, managing, and then you made this kind of shift from leading organizations to coaching leaders. (25:27) And I know this personally, you don’t coach by giving the answers you coach by asking much better questions.

(25:35) So what made that shift click for you?

Debra

(25:40) But it’s funny because you gave me credit for something I failed at. (25:43) So when I went to be a coach, I went to UC Berkeley. (25:46) That’s where I got my coaching certification.

(25:48) And to finally get your certification, you have to record a session and you have to send it in. (25:55) And I didn’t pass the first time because I give advice. (26:00) I spent my whole life kind of mentoring and there.

(26:03) And so they said, you know, Debbie, we like your style, but you gave her advice and only change true change last when the person comes to their own answers. (26:13) So I went back to the lady and I said, let me tell you what I did wrong. (26:17) And can we have another chance?

(26:19) We can do a different topic. (26:20) We don’t have to do the same topic. (26:22) So I learned a lot there about open a field or open, open a dialogue where a can just talk, don’t judge, don’t guide, don’t do anything.

(26:39) Just listen. (26:40) And most of the time the person will come to their own realization when, when they kind of hear it or you guide them in the right way.

Melissa

(26:49) Yeah. (26:50) And maybe it was just me. (26:51) Cause you always ask really fantastic questions, but I think it’s so true.

(26:55) I think when we get into, you know, senior positions, people come to you regularly for solutions. (27:03) So we’re trained to give those solutions and coaching as a whole different mindset, because you’re training them to solve their own problems instead of you giving the outcome kind of in the, in the W2 world. (27:18) And so I think I’ve kind of switched this in my life a little bit recently as, as asking, you know, when my husband comes to me, am I solving or am I listening?

(27:29) And so if I’m unsure what I’m supposed to be doing, I ask for confirmation or how can I best respond to this? (27:40) You know, when somebody actually discovers their own answer and they solve their own problems, courage is built through there and they get more resilient, they get stronger and they find solutions and grow. (27:55) And so, you know, I think back to my years of managing my earlier years, managing people, I always felt like I’d have the answer to everything.

(28:03) I had a solution to everything. (28:06) And the further I got managing people, I realized I didn’t have to know everything I could lean on my team and I can let them be the CEO of a decision more than, than myself. (28:17) And that’s kind of, has always really been my coaching philosophy is to empower people to solve problems.

(28:23) And, you know, my role is just to keep them on, you know, the yellow brick road and their job is to, you know, drive an outcome. (28:32) And so, you know, I want to talk a little bit about achievements versus just impacts. (28:38) You achieve what a lot of people in the gaming industry would be success, the hall of fame, lifetime recognition, you know, by knowing you and how you measure it, when you look back, what actually matters the most to you and what has kind of stayed with you since you’ve received that award?

(28:59) So the biggest thing in my life was getting hired at the Mirage, honest.

Debra

(29:03) And so, and some of it is, and I always say this word is called survival, right? (29:08) But one of my biggest achievements is I did survive, you survived, we didn’t give in when there were times when it sometimes giving in seemed like an easier thing. (29:21) You’re a mom, so our greatest reward, my son graduating college was a biggie, right?

(29:27) Because we had to fight for that college degree sometimes, but he got there. (29:32) What means the most, you know, Gaming Hall of Fame is huge. (29:37) It’s not lost on me.

(29:39) Sometimes I think they’re trying hard to get women in there now. (29:43) So I hope it’s deserved. (29:46) I think it was awesome to have someone from the casino floor out there doing it.

(29:52) Last year was Charlie Lombardo, somebody that I’ve always respected from the casino floor. (29:56) So that was amazing for me to see as well. (29:59) But our biggest reward, honestly, is that we leave an impact on people, that there’s something that we taught them that they remember, or we touched their life in a way when they needed it the most.

(30:12) That’s what truly matters. (30:14) And I remember those people. (30:15) There was a lady, when I worked at the Sands Hotel, it was a time where we still had attendants in the restroom.

(30:22) And there were times where I really, we can’t cry, right? (30:25) But we’re still females, we’re still sensitive. (30:27) And there were times that things were said that were so mean and awful that I’d want to cry.

(30:31) And I think when I get on my break, I’m going to go to the bathroom. (30:34) We could sit in this bathroom with this cleaning lady. (30:37) And I would say to Queenie, man, they’re getting me today.

(30:40) And she’d become my little therapist, right? (30:44) It also put things in perspective, because when I’m in there complaining, I’m not the one cleaning the bathroom, right? (30:50) So why am I complaining to the person cleaning the bathroom?

(30:53) How gracious and good was she that she would listen to me thinking, but you’re the pit manager out there in a pretty suit and you eat in the pretty restaurants every day. (31:01) So all of the gifts that the industry gave me, I didn’t lose sight of those. (31:07) The funny part, when it’s over, last weekend was my girlfriend’s birthday, and we spent her birthday two nights at Wynn.

(31:15) But now I pay for everything, right? (31:17) You want to go to dinner, you buy your dinner. (31:19) You want to go see a show, you pay for your show.

(31:22) I look back and she says to me, this must be hard. (31:25) I said, I don’t come to these casinos often, but it is hard when you realize how good you had it. (31:32) And not that I have it badly now.

(31:35) I have it great. (31:36) It’s just different.

Melissa

(31:38) Yeah. (31:38) And you know, I love kind of what you said about your children. (31:44) I think, you know, for me, so much of what I do and who I’m becoming is, you know, through my children.

(31:52) And because of my, not that I’m not achieving things for me, but leaving a legacy with them, and for them, and, you know, thinking back, all the people that you have impact, and your legacy lives through them, and they have become better leaders, and you’ve touched their lives and helped them become better and think about things differently. (32:14) And it’s such a blessing to be able to do that. (32:16) And, you know, I’ve been lucky enough to have people I managed many, many years ago, come back around.

(32:23) And, and at the time we didn’t jive, we saw things differently, but they told me I made them see areas within them they were weak on, and they got better. (32:34) And so it’s really such a reward to be able to help and empower people. (32:39) But tell me a little bit how your definition of success has changed from, you know, that young girl to kind of where you are today?

Debra

(32:49) That’s a, that’s a really great question. (32:51) Because when we’re young, success is achievement, achievement, achievement. (32:58) And that’s okay, we get there, there was a time I mentioned my son earlier, when I was so happy he graduated, there was a time where I was standing in the kitchen with him kind of, I wanted to chart, chart the course of his life.

(33:12) And he wanted to chart the course of his life, rightfully so, right. (33:17) But in my mind, I thought he would be white collar and be an executive and do things this way. (33:23) But that wasn’t his choice.

(33:25) So he looked at me. (33:26) And when I worked a lot, I wasn’t always happy, because I could go to work, and I could give you the very best I had. (33:35) But after I was often drained, there wasn’t a whole lot left, right.

(33:41) And so what your family sees is the drained you. (33:45) And they see the one that I might not go to work and complain, but they might hear my complaints at home. (33:51) When you work in gaming operations, you work six days a week.

(33:54) And I did that for 19 years. (33:56) So my son looked at me when I was trying to kind of chart the course of his life. (34:00) And he said, Do you think I want to be like you?

(34:03) I was doing well in my career, I was highly regarded, I was compensated well. (34:08) And I looked at him and I said, I do. (34:11) And he said, But I don’t, he said, most of the time, you’re miserable.

(34:16) And I thought he’s right. (34:18) Now we can put a smile on. (34:20) Look, and I can sit here today and tell you most of the time I was miserable.

(34:23) And people would say, well, you’re always happy. (34:25) Well, those are the tears of a clown. (34:27) Right?

(34:28) When there’s no one around, we can go home and our family knows that we’re really not as happy. (34:32) So we use that term, fake it till you make it. (34:35) I faked it for a long time.

(34:37) I’m finally now in a space where I am truly, truly happy, I get to live a really well balanced life. (34:46) I work for myself. (34:48) So if I make money, it’s because I worked hard.

(34:52) If I don’t, it’s because I didn’t push hard enough, or I didn’t whatever it is, right. (34:56) But it’s all okay, and good. (34:59) And the only one that’s accountable for me is me.

Melissa

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(35:40) To learn more and get a free white paper, oil and gas demystified, just visit www.summitven.com forward slash executive connect. (35:55) Yeah, and I love that you said that. (36:00) It’s interesting.

(36:03) I’m thinking about the work life balance thing. (36:08) I had a mentor of mine who literally worked himself to death. (36:13) I mean, he was at a partner at an engineering firm he owned.

(36:18) He was one of the top MLM business owners at the time when that was popular in the nineties. (36:24) He had three kids, a stay at home wife, the house, the things. (36:27) And he was what I called my rich dad.

(36:30) And he was not around for his kids. (36:34) I was the kid’s father parent and his wife was the kid’s mother parent. (36:41) And I’ll never forget, he went to a very fancy gala.

(36:47) Getting out of the limousine, he had a heart attack. (36:50) He was in his fifties, super young. (36:53) And that lesson taught me something about, I don’t know if I believe in work life balance.

(36:59) I believe some days I have to work more, other days I work less, but that lesson watching people go through, literally losing their lives to the rise, the money, the titles, the legacy, the things I decided that I was not going to compromise my health to get there. (37:22) And so I’ve been really blessed to be able to hold the line with that. (37:26) And I found that, when I finally hit certain places and spaces and I got the money, I got the titles, I had the kind of proof that I had made it.

(37:39) What actually fulfilled me most was none of those things. (37:43) What fulfilled me most was understanding the impacts that I was making and the communities I was building that were authentic to your point at the beginning, like having people that are my writer guys and people that are like, what are you doing? (37:59) Like I, before I went on, you know, Matt leave, I had a friend of mine say, yeah, you’re taking 12 weeks.

(38:04) I’m like, I can’t take 12 weeks. (38:06) I got to get back to work. (38:07) I’ve got things to do.

(38:08) And she was like, no, no, you’re, you’re taking 12 weeks. (38:11) You, you don’t, you know, you can afford it. (38:14) You need to do it.

(38:15) And so having those people in your life that can help you, you know, back to the coaching can help you resolve it in your head, where you need to go is such a gift to be able to coach people, to find their solutions. (38:32) I ultimately took those 12 weeks. (38:34) I came back, you know, I would argue that any mom, regardless of what she’s doing, that comes back after 30 days is going to be burnt out regardless whether you’re breastfeeding, not breastfeeding, whether you’re up nights.

(38:48) And so I came back energized, grounded, stable, and ready to roll. (38:52) And so, you know, I love that you’re coaching. (38:55) You have so much wisdom to share, you know, businesses and people that I think, you know, I, I often, I don’t want to use the word worry.

(39:05) I, you know, I question, you know, we’re in a time right now that people want to graduate and have the six figure jobs. (39:13) They want to, you know, use technology and take the answers, everything that chat GPT says, but there’s really nothing that’s more powerful than going through it and learning and growing up in a business. (39:27) And, you know, I love that, that you’re teaching because I think there’s so many people in the industry that can learn from your wisdom.

(39:35) And okay, we got to go there, the elephant story, because this story says more about leadership than a lot of different frameworks works could. (39:44) You told me about this and it stuck with me. (39:48) Tell me a little bit about this elephant story.

Debra

(39:51) And the reason I share the elephant story is because when I first started to get promoted, we came from a time of scarcity. (40:00) If Debbie got promoted, no other females would, because everything was a token. (40:06) Now there’s already one.

(40:07) And so I felt like we worked, we females worked against each other. (40:12) Or when I would see someone else get promoted, people would say, oh, but, you know, and there’s a story, don’t tell a story, be supportive. (40:20) And so when I meet with females, I was at a yoga class one time and the yoga instructor shared with me that it is so difficult in the wild because there are so many predators.

(40:33) And when a mother elephant is about to give birth, all of the other female elephants surround her so that no vicious lions or anyone can get in because she’s in such a compromised state giving birth that she can’t fight, but they protect her and they stay around her. (40:51) And once her baby is born, they maintain that barrier and they continue to protect her so that she has the time to bond and nurse and take care of her baby. (41:03) We can do that.

(41:04) We are so much stronger when we’re united. (41:08) When we think, I coached someone and she said, I think I need to golf because decisions are made on the golf course. (41:14) I said, I don’t buy it.

(41:16) I don’t buy it for a second. (41:17) Golf because you want to golf. (41:19) But we do better when we take care of each other.

(41:22) Men take care of each other. (41:24) Women need to realize we’re not in competition. (41:28) We need to have, you have my back.

(41:30) I have your back. (41:32) We need to have everyone’s back and protect them. (41:35) So when they’re vulnerable, the sharks don’t come and get them.

(41:39) The tigers don’t come and eat their young, right?

Melissa

(41:42) Yeah, it’s so true. (41:44) And I think, you know, I’ve had this kind of, um, kind of to your point, I didn’t have anybody kind of pulling me up, um, in my career. (41:55) It was a lot of times and it, you know, I look at it as a blessing, but I didn’t have somebody saying, okay, let’s protect Melissa.

(42:02) Let’s pull her up. (42:03) Let’s give her that kind of speaking chance or that opportunity. (42:05) I had to go get those opportunities.

(42:07) And so when I got to the places and spaces where I was able to speak, I made it very clear that I was going to bring another woman, another woman with me. (42:18) And so if I look at, um, all this speaking I’ve done over the last several years, there’s always been a woman on that panel and I’ve always kind of put them in places and spaces. (42:30) So if a conference organizer says, Hey, can, I’m looking for someone in compliance, I’ll find somebody, a woman in compliance.

(42:39) Hey, I need somebody here. (42:41) So I, I have referred so many people to speaking places. (42:46) They probably don’t even realize that I put their name forward, but I think it’s so important that we do that because we do need each other and we do, you know, need to support each other.

(42:59) And there there’s nothing we, I often kind of find it interesting, this statement, I’m a self made, whatever it is, because I don’t think any of us are self made. (43:15) I think everything we go through and everything we have to either deal with or work with helps us become kind of who we are. (43:24) And, you know, it’s funny, I truly believe in lifting others up.

(43:28) That’s why I started this podcast. (43:30) It’s why I do, you know, so much with so many nonprofits or free board seats that I work on, but it’s, it’s so important. (43:38) And so thank you for all the, you know, the good work that you do to uplift and bring women, you know, forward and support them.

(43:49) And so kind of closing the loop here and talking a little bit about practical takeaways for anyone listening right now that who wants that kind of support or who wants to be a kind leader, but maybe doesn’t know how to, where do you suggest they start?

Debra

(44:06) Just with your heart though, it’s just being authentic, be who you are. (44:11) In the early days, when someone told me how I should dress or how I should act, or I shouldn’t say yes so often, or I shouldn’t be so easy. (44:19) It didn’t work for me because it wasn’t who I was.

(44:22) So we, we have to work with, with the individual that we are. (44:26) If you’re super smart, it’s okay to be super smart. (44:30) Even if people want to tell you tone it down, you don’t, we talk to the level of the audience, right?

(44:35) But we just walk in and be who we are every day, knowing that people want a chance to be seen, to be acknowledged, to be heard. (44:45) And if we make that space truly make it, and we do it from our heart, never from our ego or our head, we’re going to be fine. (44:54) We will always be fine.

Melissa

(44:55) And you know, I’m going to, I’m going to open unpack that a little more too. (44:59) And I, even when you’re in your heart, they’re going to be the people that do not reciprocate that either take the credit or they do the wrong things. (45:11) They take things, whatever.

(45:13) Don’t let that harden your heart. (45:16) It’s so true. (45:17) So true.

(45:18) Just ignore it. (45:19) Right. (45:20) And take the lesson.

(45:22) I’ve had a lot of like, I can’t believe this person just did this. (45:28) I just, you know, help them go from homeless to a job. (45:31) And then they did this.

(45:33) I can’t believe I’ve let somebody live with me and they’ve stolen from me. (45:38) I can’t believe, don’t let it harden your heart, but take the lesson. (45:43) Understand, like for me, I understand and ask better questions.

(45:49) So I’m not making the same mistakes over and over. (45:53) And I would say also get a network. (45:56) I think a real authentic support network kind of back to the elephant, not just the surface level transactional relationships find great mentors and ask them the tough questions.

(46:13) Anytime I decide to make a tough decision, no matter what that decision is, I can assure you I’m calling a number of people. (46:21) Okay. (46:21) Here’s my situation.

(46:23) What do you think? (46:24) And some of them, you know, oftentimes a lot of them have different opinions. (46:28) And so, you know, maybe I asked six people and three have this decision and three have the other.

(46:34) I’m like, okay, now I got to make the decision, but to your point, maintain authenticity as you grow, be your authentic self. (46:43) You know, it’s so important, you know, people want to know the true you not the phony you. (46:49) And so Debra, you’ve influenced so, so many people and myself included.

(46:55) And I know this audience is going to feel that if there’s one kind of final lesson, one principle you want leaders to carry forward, what is it?

Debra

(47:06) Always pay it forward. (47:08) It will always be that because they, everyone needs it. (47:11) There were so many people that paid it forward for me that I hope I did it in my career, but I want to add a second, even though you said one, because you talked about community and real community, right?

(47:23) You can go join this or join that, but real community matters our whole life because now I don’t go to work every day, but I still need community. (47:32) I might find that. (47:34) And I do going to play pickleball, the most humbling sport on the planet, but, but I find community, but we need that because we can’t just be surrounded by ourselves, our immediate family.

(47:47) We have to be bigger and broader than that. (47:49) And community truly matters.

Melissa

(47:52) I love it. (47:53) That was great. (47:54) If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone building something meaningful or someone who needs a reminder that they don’t have to do it alone.

(48:04) And for more information on the executive connect podcast, follow us on YouTube or any of your podcast channels. (48:10) That’s the executive connect podcast.