Scaling your company shouldn’t mean losing your sanity.

In this episode of Executive Connect, Bill Flynn, author of Further, Faster and founder of Catalyst Growth Advisors, reveals why most leaders fail not from lack of effort but from doing too much.

Bill breaks down the science of sustainable growth, showing how the best CEOs simplify strategy, empower their teams, and focus on the few things that truly drive results. You’ll learn how to think like a scientist, stop micromanaging, and create a business that runs without you needing to run it.

If you’ve ever felt trapped in the chaos of your own success, this conversation will teach you how to scale smarter, not harder.

Chapters:
00:00 Why great leaders do less
02:01 Why most businesses fail
05:00 Stop micromanaging and empower your team
07:15 The 80/20 principle in leadership
10:45 Think like a scientist, not a hero
15:40 Strategy vs execution
25:55 Busting the myths of growth
35:10 How to scale without losing your humanity
46:00 Where to find Bill Flynn

Bill

(0:00) One of the first things I tell them is the hardest thing for me to get you to do is to shut up. (0:05) Your job is not to command the room, it’s not to have the answers. (0:09) Even if you have them, you’re not supposed to give them, at least not at first.

(0:14) You hired all these people and you pay them hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars, right? (0:18) Let’s use them and their brains, not just yours, to execute on your brain. (0:23) That’s the rule.

(0:24) That’s not the exception.

Melissa

(0:25) Think leading a business means juggling millions of things? (0:31) Bill Flynn says, put the juggle balls down. (0:35) With three decades in the trenches, he’s pitched to Steve Jobs, survived the 2008 crash, and cracked the code on what it actually means to grow a business.

(0:46) On today’s Executive Connect podcast, he’s bringing the wisdom, the wit, and the straight talk to help you stop guessing and start growing. (0:56) Tune in to learn why doing less might just be the smartest move you’ll ever make. (1:02) Welcome, Bill.

Bill

(1:04) Hey, Melissa. (1:05) Thank you very much. (1:07) Happy to be here.

Melissa

(1:08) Now, your career reads like a master class in trial, error, and ultimate success, from IPOs and turnarounds to coaching hundreds of companies. (1:18) What are the pivotal lessons that led you to focus on simplifying leadership to help grow your business?

Bill

(1:27) Yeah. (1:30) I’ve been studying business for 30 years and really intensely in the last 10 or so. (1:36) What I’ve learned is we really kind of suck at it.

(1:39) Most businesses fail in the first five years and the trend keeps going down. (1:44) If you believe the Gallup numbers and others, engagement at work is really low. (1:51) We shouldn’t be doing whatever it is that we’re doing.

(1:55) We should follow the anomalies because that’s where all the magic is. (1:58) That’s sort of what I studied. (2:01) I think at the highest level, I would say there’s just a really big gap between what management science knows and what businesses actually do.

(2:13) It’s all out there. (2:14) There’s a but the future is already here. (2:17) It’s just unevenly distributed.

(2:20) Most businesses work like we’re still in the 80s and 90s, and we’re not. (2:25) That’s what I teach people is that whatever people are telling you, the conventional wisdom, just ignore it. (2:30) It’s wrong, but the problem is it doesn’t feel wrong.

(2:33) It feels right. (2:34) It’s hard to not do what people say you should be doing. (2:40) That’s sort of I’ve learned is at the highest level, we think that the doing is the more important thing.

(2:48) Yes, for smaller companies, you have to be doing because I’ve worked in companies where I was one of five. (2:56) You’ve got to do everything. (2:57) At some point when you grow up and you’re the leader, you should be doing a lot less.

(3:01) Your job is to really create the future of the company, not to run it. (3:06) That doesn’t feel right because you’re actually doing a lot less and you’re more thinking and letting other people do things. (3:12) It just feels wrong.

(3:13) It’s an interesting enigma that we find ourselves in.

Melissa

(3:19) Talk to me a little bit about how your personal journey shaped the work you do today.

Bill

(3:28) I started pretty early on in the late 80s doing startups. (3:35) I’ve done about 10 startups over 25 years. (3:38) Mostly on the operations side, I started as an inside sales guy, a little 20-year-old person answering the phone and doing stuff.

(3:45) Eventually, I would run pretty good-sized organizations. (3:50) I never really worked for a really large company. (3:53) The largest one I think was $120 million or something, but most of them are pretty small.

(3:58) You get to see lots of stuff and learn lots of things. (4:02) I often joke that I wish I knew then what I know now because it would have been a lot easier to do things. (4:12) What I learned is that we almost always solve the problem from the middle.

(4:19) We need to always go back to the root. (4:22) For instance, I used to run sales and marketing. (4:26) I’ve done that a few times.

(4:28) We are very focused on how to sell to them, how to push them, yet we don’t really understand why they buy from us. (4:36) Most companies don’t understand that at all. (4:39) That’s what I teach.

(4:40) You really have to understand what causes someone to buy from you. (4:44) There’s this really great guy who’s no longer with who has a great statement. (4:50) His name was Clayton Christensen.

(4:52) He was a Harvard Business School professor. (4:54) He ran a consulting organization and wrote lots of books. (4:58) He would say, hey, I’m from Cambridge.

(5:00) I’m 6’8″. (5:00) I’m 60-something years old. (5:02) I’m a professor.

(5:04) My income is this. (5:05) I have this many kids. (5:06) He said, none of these are the reasons that I buy the New York Times.

(5:10) They’re completely different reasons. (5:12) We never understand the reasons why people buy from us. (5:15) That’s what I’ve learned is one of the most important things to do is really understand that.

(5:23) Secondly, your other really important constituency are the people that work for you. (5:27) Jim Collins has this great saying, which is most leaders are the genius with a thousand helpers. (5:33) Your job isn’t to be the genius with a thousand helpers.

(5:35) Your job is to make everyone else geniuses. (5:39) There’s this great saying, which is if you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room. (5:45) I actually think that’s not quite right.

(5:47) Your job is not to be the smartest person in the room, but to make every room that you’re in smarter than any one person. (5:54) If you can do that, and that includes your team, et cetera, if you can do just those two things, I would say you’re 80% of the way there, but almost no one does that. (6:04) That’s what I’ve learned on my way.

Melissa

(6:07) Ready to lead smarter and invest wiser? (6:10) On the Executive Connect podcast, we unpack executive strategies for wealth and influence. (6:17) Hit the subscribe button now.

(6:20) Don’t just watch, act. (6:22) Yeah, I love that. (6:23) I think there’s so much truth to it.

(6:25) I forget who said it, but you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with who you’re spending your time with. (6:32) Similar to what you were saying is if you’re the smartest person in the room, get into another room. (6:38) I love that.

(6:39) I think there’s so much truth to that. (6:40) I want to talk a little bit about your book further, faster, dives deep into the idea that leaders should focus on the vital few. (6:49) Explain to me what that means and why so many leaders get trapped in the noise instead of the actual signals.

Bill

(6:58) Yeah. (7:01) There’s this really great thing that this guy Pareto created called the Pareto principle or the law of the vital few, but most of us know it as the 80-20 rule. (7:11) The 80-20 rule basically says that 80% of the results happen from 20% of the input.

(7:17) That happens with almost everything in your life. (7:19) If you think about the clothes you wear, the friends you have, the food you eat, everything almost always falls into this. (7:26) 80% of the time, you’re using 20% of the clothes in your closet.

(7:31) You’re hanging out with 20% of the friends that you know. (7:33) You’re eating 20% of the food that you could normally, that you have eaten over the time. (7:38) We can do it with language.

(7:40) It’s that most words that we use, we use the same words over and over again. (7:45) The top 100 words, the 20 of them are used 80 to 90% of the time. (7:51) So the same thing in business is we get sort of enamored of doing stuff.

(7:58) We think busyness means productivity, and it doesn’t. (8:03) Because actually, if you’re most productive as a leader, you’re doing a lot less than you need to be, but that just feels wrong. (8:12) I don’t know if they do it anymore, but Walmart used to, their leadership, would they get together on Mondays, and then they’d have their meeting or meetings.

(8:22) Then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, they were out in the field. (8:24) They were going to stores. (8:25) They were talking to managers who run Walmart, et cetera.

(8:30) Then on Friday, they’d all get together again, and then say, hey, what did we learn? (8:33) What can we learn from that? (8:34) How can we change the business, et cetera?

(8:37) They were hardly doing anything. (8:38) They weren’t meeting with people, having their meetings with their team. (8:41) They weren’t giving orders.

(8:42) They were learning and gathering information. (8:46) So that’s just something we, even the clients that I’ve had, I’ve had dozens, if not hundreds of clients, they feel really uncomfortable with that. (8:56) When I work with my CEOs and things, one of the first things I tell them is the hardest thing for me to get you to do is to shut up.

(9:07) Your job is not to command the room. (9:11) It’s not to have the answers. (9:12) Even if you have them, you’re not supposed to give them, at least not at first.

(9:18) Your job is to, you hired all these people and you pay them hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars. (9:24) Let’s use them and their brains, not just yours, to execute on your brain. (9:30) But they have a really hard time doing it.

(9:32) I’m often quietly looking at them and saying, hang on a second, ask questions, don’t make statements. (9:41) That’s the rule. (9:43) That’s not the exception.

(9:45) If you want to be a great leader, you have to be exceptional. (9:50) There’s this thing called the one phrase strategy that I learned from scaling up. (9:54) Mine is be exceptional.

(9:55) I want to be exceptional to my clients. (9:58) I think if I can be exceptional, then they’ll say this is the best money I’ve ever spent because I’m paying Bill a hundred times from the things that he’s showing me and teaching me and helping my team do. (10:14) So that’s sort of what the law of the vital few means.

(10:17) You really need to find those really few things that matter tremendously. (10:22) This is a great saying. (10:23) Few things matter, but those that do matter tremendously.

(10:27) Your job is to figure out what those few things are for your customers and your team, primarily. (10:34) You have other stakeholders. (10:35) But if you could just do those two, you’ve got suppliers and partners and all these, that’s all great.

(10:40) But if you could just do those two, then I think you’re well on your way. (10:43) But again, we don’t do it that often, which is just sort of sad.

Melissa

(10:48) Yeah. (10:48) I want to talk a little bit about the scientific mindset. (10:53) Now you describe yourself as a pragmatic Simon Sinek, equal parts optimism and execution.

(11:01) So talk to me a little bit about what that means and how can leaders blend purpose with practical action?

Bill

(11:10) Yeah. (11:10) So I’m also a neuroscience geek. (11:13) And there are two things that people want, which are actually opposed to each other.

(11:20) And if you can figure this out as a leader, you’re in unique company. (11:27) And that is, we want to feel like we’re unique, yet we also want to belong. (11:33) Those are like the two primary drivers of human beings.

(11:37) And there’s this great meme that’s out there. (11:39) It’s been around for 10 or 15 years. (11:41) And it’s a sort of a university style lecture hall with a stadium seating.

(11:48) And it says, be different at the bottom. (11:50) And it’s Apple. (11:50) And everyone has Apple computers.

(11:52) And it’s be different. (11:55) But they feel like they’re different. (11:57) That’s the interesting thing.

(11:59) Tattoos and goth and whatever, they’re all the same, but they feel that they’re different. (12:06) And that sort of scratches both itches. (12:07) They belong to this group of uniqueness.

(12:11) And if you can create that in your own business, then you’re well on your way. (12:17) So your job as a leader is to try to tap in to those things that make those two constituencies feel like they’re part of something bigger than themselves. (12:37) That’s the purpose thing.

(12:42) There’s a thing I love to say, which is, there’s been all these studies about when people say, what do you want most from your leader? (12:47) And there’s a whole bunch of things. (12:48) But always two things come to the top of every list that I’ve ever read.

(12:52) And that is, they want two things more than anything else. (12:55) Like there’s 70, 80% of these things happen to come up on the top of the list every time. (13:00) One is, number one is almost always, we want to know whatever you tell us is true.

(13:08) We know that you can’t necessarily tell us everything. (13:11) But whatever you do tell us has to be the truth. (13:14) Because trust arrives on foot and leaves in a Ferrari.

(13:24) So if we find out that something you told us isn’t true, we’re going to not trust you immediately. (13:28) We may not completely not trust you, but there’s sort of a battery thing. (13:32) It’s a trust battery.

(13:33) It’ll go up and down. (13:35) But it will take a long time for you to earn that back. (13:37) So don’t ever tell them something that isn’t true.

(13:40) Or certainly don’t let them find out. (13:43) And the second is, they want to know where are we going. (13:46) You’re a leader.

(13:48) It’s not, leading isn’t about being in front. (13:51) We think that’s about being in front. (13:53) We say, oh, you’re a leader because you spoke first or you took charge.

(13:56) No, that’s a boss. (13:57) So that’s authority. (13:58) But a leader, the one thing that leaders do that is the same that no one can dispute is that leaders create followers.

(14:11) That’s like the main thing they do. (14:12) How they do that is almost always completely different. (14:16) I think vision and courage are often there.

(14:18) You have to sort of envision and say, here’s what it looks like. (14:20) You have to paint a picture so they can say, okay, this is what it looks like when we get there. (14:24) So then they can take that picture and say, okay, how do I apply that to what I’m doing and how I’m contributing?

(14:29) And then they start using their own brains and start pushing you as opposed to you pulling them. (14:34) So giving them that purpose, that sort of reason for being, the reason we’re here, how we make the world a better place is really important. (14:40) But then you also have to give them the opportunity to execute and operate in a way that works for them, not for you, because everyone’s different.

(14:50) Everyone’s spiky and idiosyncratic. (14:52) And your job as a leader is to figure out how to take a bunch of really spiky and idiosyncratic people and turn them into a well-rounded team. (15:01) None of us is well-rounded.

(15:02) The closest is probably Da Vinci or someone like that. (15:06) But it’s a rare person who can write with both hands and do all these things, et cetera. (15:11) We are not that way at all.

(15:13) And don’t try to make them well-rounded. (15:15) We’re always saying, well, you have to teach them how to be better delegators and better this and better that. (15:19) Maybe you just need to have them make sure they contribute optimally as they can, growing themselves and making the company better.

(15:27) If you can just do those two things, then you’re well on your way. (15:30) But trying to make them better at everything is actually a waste of time. (15:36) So those are the two things, sort of a purpose and a practical side of things is the way I look at it.

Melissa

(15:43) I love that you say that because I think often as a leader, we think we have to be perfect at everything and know everything and be great at all the things. (15:52) And exactly what you said, being perfect at everything is not going to happen. (15:57) And why not delegate or give it to somebody else that’s better than you in those areas?

(16:01) So I’m curious on how thinking like a scientist can improve decision-making when under pressure in business.

Bill

(16:12) Yeah. (16:12) So one of the big mistakes we make across almost everything we do in business is we don’t apply what’s called the scientific method. (16:24) And the scientific method is basically you have a hypothesis or a theory or something, and your job is to try to disprove it.

(16:33) And if you can’t disprove it, then it’s probably pretty good. (16:37) So far, we haven’t disproved gravity. (16:41) We still try to.

(16:42) We try to figure out how to do it. (16:43) It’s just a thing. (16:46) But we don’t do that.

(16:47) What we do is we try to prove that we’re right. (16:48) We try to find things that show that we’re right. (16:50) And then what happens is we have 150 or so unconscious biases that are, some of them are triggered in this process.

(16:57) And Simon and Garfunkel have a great line in one of their songs from the 70s or 60s or whatever, which is, we only see what we want to see and we disregard the rest. (17:07) Right? (17:07) And that’s called cognitive dissonance and sort of geek speak and whatever, or confirmation bias, or there’s a whole bunch of other things that happen just called motivated reasoning.

(17:17) And it’s all these neuroscience terms. (17:18) And basically it says, you just, you just ignore the stuff, but you do that at your peril, especially if you’re doing with your, with your customers. (17:27) I was in this, I was asked to help a company out, I don’t know, 15 years ago or so, and they were a startup.

(17:35) And one of the VCs said, Hey, you know, you’re not, you’re in between gigs and can you help these guys out? (17:39) And so I went in and helped them. (17:41) And I went with the founder to three different sales pitches.

(17:44) Now I’m a 25 year sales guy and selling high tech and such. (17:48) And so we went to each one and none of them went well. (17:53) And at the end of the third one, this founder said to me, they just don’t get it.

(18:01) And I turned to him and I said, you know what? (18:03) That sentence is perfect. (18:04) I said, but your pronouns are backwards.

(18:08) I said, they don’t have to get it. (18:10) It’s not their job to get how smart you are or how wonderful and quiver and clever you are. (18:16) They’re trying to make their lives better.

(18:18) They’re trying to make progress. (18:19) They’re trying to get over some struggles and you’re not helping them. (18:23) So yeah, you, you have to, you have to switch what you’re doing.

(18:26) And just to prove my point, I was not asked back as a consultant after that. (18:32) He did not want to hear that. (18:35) They are not, they’re not in business anymore.

Melissa

(18:38) I wouldn’t surprise me, right? (18:40) I think, you know, I’ve been part of it. (18:43) We’ve all been part of the micromanaged boss and, and, and at some point you just got to decide, is it worth it or is it not worth it?

(18:54) And so I want to talk a little bit about the core purpose, your core purpose of simplified servanthood. (19:03) First of all, I love that phrase. (19:05) I think that’s brilliant.

(19:07) What does that look like in practical day-to-day leadership?

Bill

(19:16) So what I think my primary job is, is to work with the CEO or the head of company or whatever that is, and to get him or her as they grow, to get him or her to fire themselves from the day-to-day as much as possible. (19:28) So that’s doing less. (19:31) Because as I said earlier, most people think their job is to run the company.

(19:35) And I said, that’s not your job. (19:37) And by the way, that’s conventional wisdom, right? (19:38) You run the company.

(19:39) No, you don’t. (19:41) Everyone else should be running the company, right? (19:43) You should be looking out two, three, four years.

(19:46) What’s going on in the world? (19:48) What are our customers care about? (19:49) You know, what are technologies and trends and things that are going to be happening that we need to plan for well ahead of time so we don’t get caught?

(19:58) And most leaders, you know, as you sort of said, they micromanage. (20:03) By the way, it feels good, right? (20:06) We’re helping.

(20:09) And there’s this wonderful little saying that I talk about with my clients. (20:13) And I would say, oh, I said, we’re going down a mink hole. (20:17) And they’ll look at me, especially the first time I say it, right?

(20:19) Like, what is a mink hole? (20:20) I said, it’s a rabbit hole that feels really good. (20:25) So you don’t even know you’re in it.

(20:27) But you’re in it, right? (20:27) It’s the same thing. (20:28) You’re just going down this thing that you’re talking about things that just don’t matter that much, you know, in your job, especially when I’m in the room.

(20:33) I always say, look, guys, you’re paying me a lot an hour. (20:36) Do we really want to talk about what color the thing should be on the whatever? (20:40) Or should we be talking about, you know, how our customers, you know, what they need and what their struggles are and how we position ourselves in the marketplace or whatever.

(20:50) And, you know, we it is a natural tendency. (20:53) Our brain likes to solve problems, which I get, right? (20:56) So I’m saying, no, this isn’t this isn’t a flaw that you have.

(21:00) This is actually how your wiring works. (21:01) And my job is just to stop you from doing it. (21:05) And by the way, when I’m not in the room, you should be helping each other stop stopping to do that.

(21:08) Because most of the time, especially when you’re in your leadership team meeting, you should be working out the future of the business. (21:17) And one of the things that I talk with a lot about clients is about strategy and execution. (21:23) And I used to be a Vistage speaker a long time ago.

(21:25) And this is a peer to peer advisory organization that’s been around for, I don’t know, 50, 60, 70, 80 years, whatever it is. (21:31) And it’s a bunch of, you know, 15, 16 CEOs that get together once a month and they sort of help each other out. (21:35) And I would go and be a speaker and I would ask a lot of the same questions over and over again.

(21:40) And first question I would, I would always ask is, what is the biggest barrier to success in your business right now? (21:45) And then I’d have them all write it down on a sticky and we’d put them up and we’d sort of share them and see what they were. (21:49) And most of them are operational, right?

(21:51) We’re not doing the right things. (21:52) We’re not doing them right. (21:53) We’re not doing them on time, whatever.

(21:55) And I say, well, what are you executing on? (21:59) And then I would wait. (22:01) And there’ll be silence, right?

(22:02) And someone would say, well, the plan. (22:06) I’m like, well, where’s the plan come from? (22:07) And I’m trying to get them to strategy, right?

(22:09) Your job is strategy. (22:10) And then we’d say, what is strategy? (22:11) And then I’d say, give me a definition of strategy as well.

(22:13) It’s the plan. (22:14) It’s the roadmap. (22:14) And I’m like, well, no, it’s not.

(22:16) It’s the, that’s the outcropping of the strategy. (22:21) But the strategy is the thinking behind the plan, right? (22:25) And there’s this guy, Hannibal, who’s known as the sort of the great grandfather of strategy, who was a Carthaginian general.

(22:32) And his strategy was stun, surprise, surround, and slaughter. (22:36) And he would beat the Romans on a regular basis because they didn’t have a plan, a strategy. (22:41) And he would use that depending on the weather, the time of year, the time of day, what his resources were, what their resources were.

(22:47) But it was always the same strategy, but he applied it differently based upon the environment that he was in. (22:53) And then I would say, okay, so let’s assume it’s strategy. (22:56) And I said, so if I went into your Monday morning meeting, your leadership team meeting with all of you, and you’re not executing the way you want.

(23:02) And I asked them to write down in their own words, what is our current company strategy? (23:09) And then we read them out loud. (23:10) What would happen?

(23:12) And then they’d laugh, right? (23:14) And you’re sort of smiling, laughing. (23:15) Oh, it’d be all over the place, right?

(23:16) Whenever. (23:17) And I said, so you’re frustrated that they’re not doing the right things, but maybe they’re executing perfectly on what they think the strategy is. (23:24) So your job is to make sure they literally and what’s the other word?

Melissa

(23:32) Figuratively.

Bill

(23:33) Whatever. (23:34) They’re on the same page. (23:37) So that’s where we start, right?

(23:39) If you don’t have a strategy that everyone is executing on, then you’re always moving in different directions. (23:42) And we’re going to be fighting with each other, and you’re going to have silos, and you’re going to have all these things. (23:46) So that’s sort of where I, that’s what I found when I talked to lots of leaders.

(23:50) And I’ve talked to hundreds, if not thousands, and more of them are like that than how I think they should be, which would make their lives a lot easier.

Melissa

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(24:24) Just visit moneyripples.com forward slash secrets and enter the promo code EXEC. (24:32) Yeah. (24:33) And I love that you brought that up.

(24:35) It makes me think so many fantastic points in that, but I think kind of what you were saying, a lot of times when you are building strategies, micromanaging the strategy, and then just, the strategy has to be a living, moving, changing thing, right? (24:55) If the troops move one direction and it’s raining, you might need to change your strategy with the rain. (25:03) And so I think what I see too is similar to what you were saying, leaders hire these great, smart people, micromanage them.

(25:11) They’re not clear on what they’re driving to. (25:13) There’s not really a plan. (25:15) And so everybody’s kind of just waiting for direction and the CEO’s wasting his time in areas that he really shouldn’t be sitting in versus driving the business.

(25:25) So I want to talk a little bit about myths. (25:29) I think a lot of leaders fall into the same trap, whether it’s chasing shiny objects or believing that activity equals more productivity. (25:41) What are some of the common misconceptions that you see as it relates to growth that you wish every leader could unlearn today, if not tomorrow?

Bill

(25:55) Yeah, there are so many, right? (25:58) So I think the first one that is probably the one that’s paramount to me, and actually I’m currently looking to publish a book on this as we speak, and it’s called Hero to Architect, right? (26:14) And so this myth of being a hero, right?

(26:17) And the problem is when you get to that point where you’re really in charge of everyone and everything, if you will, all of the things that reinforced you getting there are actually the things that are now going to make you fail. (26:34) Because I don’t know where you grew up, but I grew up here in Massachusetts and I went to public school and whatever, and I hated school. (26:41) And now I understand why I hated school.

(26:44) It’s because it’s not teaching me anything. (26:47) I shouldn’t say that. (26:48) I’m not learning anything, right?

(26:51) If I’m really good at school, I’m good at taking information in and giving it back the way that person wants it. (26:57) It doesn’t mean I’m retaining it or learning anything or whatever, right? (27:00) There’s very little in that process.

(27:05) But that’s what gets reinforced, right? (27:06) The person who raises their hand and gets the answer are rewarded. (27:10) And if you get the good grades, you’re rewarded.

(27:11) So you’re rewarded for these types of non-creative answers, if you will, right? (27:21) You’re the answer person. (27:22) And then you go to college and it’s the same thing.

(27:24) And then you’re in your job. (27:26) And if you’re operational, you’re really good at your job because you’re operationally great. (27:30) You’re excellent at this thing.

(27:32) And then you get promoted to leading a bunch of people. (27:37) And you think that’s what you’re supposed to keep doing, right? (27:40) So what you do, and I had this guy I worked with who I really like.

(27:43) He’s a really good friend of mine. (27:44) And he ran marketing before I took over. (27:46) And every morning, he’s an engineer and he was running marketing.

(27:49) He was one of the founders. (27:50) He would get his team together. (27:51) I think there were five of them or six of them.

(27:53) And he would give them all. (27:55) He’d say, Mary, you do this. (27:56) And John, you do that.

(27:57) And then we’re going to get together at the end of the day. (27:58) And we’re going to talk about how it went. (28:00) He did it every single day.

(28:03) And then what happened was I was asked to take over marketing. (28:06) And that is not my style at all, right? (28:09) And so I took over marketing and they hated me.

(28:14) Hated me. (28:15) Because I said, I’m not doing that. (28:16) I’m not telling you what to do.

(28:17) You’re super smart. (28:18) You know what you’re doing. (28:18) By the way, you know more than I do about a lot of this stuff.

(28:20) I said, let’s talk about what we want to accomplish as a team and how that makes us better and a better contributor to the overall success of the organization. (28:33) And let’s talk about each individual group. (28:35) And then you tell me what you need and I will help you.

(28:40) And they didn’t like that because they were learned helpless, right? (28:43) They had learned helplessness. (28:45) And so they were super uncomfortable.

(28:47) Now, eventually they actually believed me and I supported them, et cetera. (28:51) And so I think I was leading the group for about a year and a half. (28:55) And they loved me at the end because I was like, I love the way you write, Lisa, you should write lots of stuff.

(29:02) I said, I think you write too much, but I’m a good editor. (29:05) So why don’t you write what you think it is and then we’ll work together as a team. (29:08) And then I want to make sure you’re okay with it.

(29:10) I didn’t miss anything. (29:11) So she would write three pages and I would get it down to a page, right? (29:17) Because again, back to that idiosyncratic, spiky thing.

(29:22) And that’s how you sort of work together as a team. (29:25) And that’s sort of the biggest myth that I think we have to bust is this sort of hero. (29:33) You must continue to be a hero.

(29:35) And that makes you a great leader. (29:37) We even celebrate, we think Steve Jobs, but some of the best leaders I’ve ever heard of, you’ve never heard of, right? (29:45) There’s this guy, Alan Mulally, who to me is the best leader we’ve ever had in a century.

(29:50) Do you know who he is?

Melissa

(29:52) I know some Mulally’s, but not Alan.

Bill

(29:55) Yeah, Alan Mulally. (29:57) So Alan Mulally is an example of many leaders who people just don’t, it’s not the Steve Jobs, the Bill Gates, the Warren Buffetts, whatever. (30:05) I’m not saying that they’re bad, but they’re just different kinds of folks.

(30:09) Alan Mulally ran Boeing commercial aircraft in the middle of 9-11. (30:15) And then Bill Ford asked him to run Ford through the middle of 2008. (30:21) He had both companies come out of those existential crises better than they went in.

(30:28) And he did it twice. (30:30) No one that I know of has ever done something like that, even once, but twice. (30:36) No one knows who he is, or hardly anyone knows who he is, because he’s just a super humble guy.

(30:41) He doesn’t seek the limelight. (30:42) He’s not on covers of magazines and things. (30:44) I think he was on Jay Leno’s car show, because he’s a car nut.

(30:48) But that’s about as much as you get. (30:51) But we don’t celebrate that, right? (30:52) Because Alan Mulally did what he did, and he is a really nice human being.

(30:57) And I can tell you that, because Alan and Matt Mulally and I are now friends. (31:01) Because I wrote an article about what he did at Ford, and compared it to what I do with my clients. (31:07) And he read it.

(31:08) And I’ll tell you how humble this guy is. (31:10) He sent me an email and said, I want to meet you. (31:14) I said, you nailed it.

(31:15) I want to meet you. (31:17) And at first, I’m like, no way. (31:18) Is this Alan Mulally?

(31:19) I’ve been talking to this guy for 10 years. (31:20) And this is someone who’s making fun of me and punking me or whatever. (31:25) But no, it was Alan Mulally.

(31:26) And that was five or six years ago. (31:28) And we’re still connected. (31:30) I’m in a group that he started years ago called 100 Coaches.

(31:33) And so I get to see him every now and again. (31:34) It’s just a… (31:36) But that’s such a rare story.

(31:38) But we don’t celebrate that. (31:41) We celebrate the hero.

Melissa

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(32:15) DavidandAlexisKiwi.org. (32:17) Code EXECUTIVE1. (32:22) I was never somebody that celebrated many of the accomplishments.

(32:28) And a lot of people have asked me, you just move on to the next thing. (32:33) And I’m like, well, let’s just move on to the next thing, right? (32:36) We accomplished this and we accomplished that.

(32:38) But I do agree with you. (32:39) I think back to education, I didn’t like it either. (32:43) It wasn’t until I got into engineering school where I was taught to solve problems.

(32:49) And that’s when I really started enjoying learning amongst different problems. (32:55) Because exactly what you were saying, I felt like I was going to school to memorize presidents, to regurgitate it on a test to prove that I knew who the presidents were. (33:04) And not that it’s not important not to know who the presidents are, but it’s important to solve different problems in our own day-to-day, or at least find resources that help us solve them if we don’t know how to.

(33:17) And so I love that you mentioned that about Alan, because I do identify with that personally. (33:25) And I think we live in a place where everybody’s getting trophies and everybody’s getting at a whatever versus all pulling towards the same goal of, we’re trying to get the software out or we’re trying to, whatever the thing is that we’re trying to get to. (33:44) So I love that you brought that up because I think it’s so true.

(33:48) Some of my best mentors I’ve ever had, they would say things to me that I didn’t necessarily want to hear pretty regularly. (33:57) And it forced me to rethink my perspective. (34:01) And like Kenny, you were alluding to at the beginning, my rose colored glasses that I was wearing, and I didn’t want to hear their perspective.

(34:08) But I think once we step back and we, is this good advice? (34:15) Is this bad advice? (34:16) Is there some truth to it?

(34:17) Can I use what’s been given to me? (34:20) Because I think they’re gifts when people give us information that we don’t otherwise know or blind spots we have or ways we’ve approached things. (34:29) I believe those are all gifts.

(34:31) And so I like to receive them. (34:34) I don’t always dwell on them myself, but I want to talk about the human part of scaling. (34:40) I know I’ve been part of a lot of different scaling companies, and I find that we are really focused on the doing from top to the bottom without so much focused on the human.

(34:56) So let’s talk a little bit about compassion, well-being, purpose, all those words. (35:02) How can leaders grow their companies without losing their soul and losing their team’s trust in them?

Bill

(35:15) Well, so there’s a bunch of stuff in there. (35:18) First of all, it gets back to what you said earlier, which is, your job is to create followers. (35:26) And often what happens with startups, at least the ones that I’ve been involved in, and I’ve personally been involved in 10 and probably multiply that by 10 of the other ones I’ve had some relationship with, is it’s more of a cult of personality at the beginning.

(35:45) Yeah, you’re following the idea, but you’re really following the person more than anything. (35:52) And that doesn’t scale. (35:54) Because eventually when you get to 150, 200 people, no one knows who that person is, or they don’t get to get that benefit of that energy that person provides to the organization.

(36:07) And you also have to know who you are. (36:11) So I think the best way to talk about this is an example. (36:16) So we all know Starbucks, at least in the United States and hopefully almost everywhere.

(36:21) Yes. (36:22) And the founder of that is Howard… (36:27) No, I can’t remember his last name.

Melissa

(36:28) Schultz.

Bill

(36:29) Schultz. (36:30) Thank you very much. (36:31) Howard Schultz.

(36:32) And what I really like about Howard Schultz is that he knew who he was. (36:37) And he knew that if he was in front of everyone, he would piss everyone off. (36:44) Right?

(36:45) But he had this idea, he wanted to do it, but he knew he wasn’t great at that. (36:49) And so what he did is he stuck someone in between him. (36:51) His name was Bob.

(36:52) I can’t remember Bob’s name. (36:54) And Bob was the human guy. (36:56) Right?

(36:56) So Howard would say, we’ve got to do this, we’ve got to do that. (36:58) And then Bob would translate that and then work with the human beings, the flawed human beings that we are. (37:04) And by the way, Howard was flawed as well.

(37:06) Because our default is irrational, impulsive, and highly emotional. (37:10) That’s a feature of being a human, by the way, because that’s how we evolved. (37:16) Right?

(37:17) All of those bold initiative-taking ancestors of ours are dead because they fell off the cliff or they were eaten by the thing or whatever. (37:28) Right? (37:29) So those genes did not survive.

(37:31) The running away genes survived. (37:35) Right? (37:35) The scared people, don’t be curious and look behind the tree with the…

(37:39) pretty orange color back there. (37:41) That’s not a good thing. (37:42) It’s like, oh my God, the tree’s rustled, run like hell.

(37:45) I don’t even care what’s there. (37:47) It could be the wind. (37:48) But if we run like hell, we’re going to live another day.

(37:51) That’s who we are. (37:52) Right? (37:52) And that’s how you have to remember that as a leader.

(37:56) And by the way, if you want people to be the best versions of themselves, you have to model that first. (38:02) People come to me all the time, you sort of asked this question, but you didn’t quite. (38:05) How do I lead my team?

(38:07) How do I get my team to be a better team? (38:09) And, you know, and have the psychologically safe thing that I know Amy Emmons keeps saying and all this stuff. (38:14) And I said, well, first you have to get really comfortable with three things.

(38:17) You have to come to with, I don’t know, I’m sorry, and I need help. (38:22) Because when you start to model that behavior, they will start to feel safe that they can also be flawed human beings. (38:29) But as you said earlier on, you know, you have to be perfect, right?

(38:32) You have to know everything you have to, you know, and don’t show it if you don’t, you know, just whatever. (38:37) But the best way to create that environment is actually to say, you know what, we’re struggling here. (38:43) I don’t have the answer.

(38:45) But, you know, I have an idea of what I’d like it to look like when we’re out of it. (38:49) So, you know, and I’d love your input on that, you know, but let’s sort of decide on that. (38:53) And then let’s work together to figure out what are the ways that we can get there.

(38:56) As opposed to coming in, which most leaders do and say, hey, we’re struggling here. (39:00) Here’s my idea. (39:02) And let me, let me lay it out for you.

(39:03) You know, let me, here’s my slides or whatever. (39:05) And then they say, what do you think? (39:08) And guess what happens?

(39:09) That’s, you’re a genius. (39:11) Oh my God. (39:13) Because you’ve never given them a chance to even use their own brains, right?

(39:16) And of course, you’re the boss. (39:17) What are they going to say? (39:18) And it’s not necessarily because they’re afraid of you.

(39:20) They might love you and they’re just going to be supportive. (39:23) Like, oh, that’s wonderful. (39:24) Let’s go ahead.

(39:24) Because by the way, they don’t have any other ideas yet because this is the time they heard of it. (39:28) You know, so, so we don’t understand. (39:30) We don’t do that enough as leaders.

(39:33) The great leaders do that all the time, right? (39:35) They understand that their job is to pull the power of the, of the group out of the conversation, as opposed to leading the conversation. (39:46) You’re, you’re leading it towards a destination, but you’re not leading it step-by-step toward that destination.

(39:54) And so that’s what we forget as leaders. (39:57) So what happens is for a while that works, right? (39:59) And I, I used to, I used to draw this, this, you know, concentric circle thing.

(40:03) I say, you know, when, when you’re one to five people and you’re a startup that works great, there’s no culture. (40:07) It’s, you know, there’s no, like, there’s no values that you’re stating. (40:10) They’re just are, right?

(40:11) It’s, it’s, it’s who you are. (40:12) Then you guess what happens is you’re, there are three constituencies on, on the outside of each circle. (40:18) And that’s, you know, the customer, the, the employees, you know, the team, and then the market.

(40:25) And then when you’re one to five, those, those three things are right there, right? (40:29) Because you’re answering the phone and you’re answering the complaints and you’re delivering and you’re packaging and you’re doing all these things, you know, all this stuff. (40:34) And then you get, then guess what happens?

(40:35) You get successful and you, you hire more people and you get up to 25 and, and you’re still pretty close to, you know, but then you get to 50 and a hundred and then you, then you’re farther and farther away from these constituencies, but you don’t realize that the information that you’re getting from these hundred and so people is not the same that as if you were really there. (40:54) So now you start making what you think are good decisions based upon bad information. (41:02) So until you understand, I would say you have to know a little bit of neuroscience because we’re all crazy and you have to understand that.

(41:12) But again, crazy is, is the default. (41:13) That’s who we are. (41:15) And when you understand that, you’ll understand why this person thinks this way and this person thinks that way.

(41:21) And you can’t treat everyone the same because they were not all the same, you know, et cetera. (41:25) So that’s when, if you don’t understand a little bit of neuroscience, you’re always working against the headwind.

Melissa

(41:31) It’s funny, as you’re talking, it’s crazy. (41:35) I was thinking about a story as I was a very young engineer, very young bill. (41:42) I wasn’t even out of college yet.

(41:44) And I had a control freak boss, like massive, you know, why was I leaving my cubicle to go that? (41:53) Why were you over in that area with the surveyors? (41:57) You should be over there with the engineers.

(41:59) So I was over with the surveyors and they were always strung out. (42:06) They were running in trying to find maps, trying to find this. (42:09) They were always stressed out, always working late, always fighting.

(42:14) And I was across the building and I figured out a solution because what happened is they were just stacking maps on top of each other. (42:24) So they were always lost on what they were trying to do. (42:28) I figured out a simple system on how they could always find what they needed.

(42:32) But my micromanaging boss didn’t want me to go fix the problem because he wanted me to do what I was working on on the other side of the building. (42:43) So I remember pulling the guy, I was leaving work, I remember pulling the head surveyor aside. (42:49) I’m like, hey, here’s a process I would try with your surveying team.

(42:54) That way, everybody could be more organized. (42:57) You guys get in, get out, get it done faster, no fighting. (43:00) And I’ll never forget, you said everybody’s a little crazy.

(43:04) And I think back to this story, my boss was so mad at me for going to help a different division because he felt like it was taking away from his time that I could be solving his problems. (43:20) Now, and what you were just saying through this whole podcast was that leader, that partner should have been happy that I went to do that because less conflict, more productivity, and they were working less hours versus working overtime. (43:39) So had that leader just let somebody solve a problem, there’d be more profitability.

(43:45) And I was, I don’t even know, I was young. (43:48) I was not even out of college yet. (43:50) But I think back to what you’ve been saying, letting people solve problems and developing yourself as a CEO that can take feedback, or it doesn’t even have to be a CEO leadership, that somebody else might have a better solution than you and letting it happen and letting it work.

(44:09) I think if we all just kind of showed up with a little more collaboration and not so crazy, like you were mentioning, I think the workplace would…

Bill

(44:19) Well, can I add something to that? (44:21) Because you didn’t even mention other stuff, which is, I think, even more important than just solving the problem, is you are learning skills of how to work with other people and how to negotiate and how to figure out systems and how things work together. (44:34) You are actually developing yourself in a wholly different way.

(44:39) This is why Google has the 20% time and all this other stuff, is these people are learning things because they have to. (44:44) In order for them to get their project in, they have to learn other stuff than how to write code and how to do that, which is fine. (44:51) And I’m not saying that’s not important, but especially if you want to grow your team as your business grows and you want people to move around and, again, find them the best place in the company, if you never did that, you wouldn’t find out that you were able to do these things really well.

(45:04) And actually, I kind of like doing that better than coding. (45:08) And so you’re happier, you’re more fulfilled, you’re more engaged, you’re actually contributing to the company, hopefully you don’t leave. (45:13) But by the way, if you find out that, you will leave the company.

Melissa

(45:16) 100%.

Bill

(45:16) Because you’re stuck in that thing and they lost someone who potentially could have made the company even better. (45:24) So these are sort of the second and third order consequences that happen when we act this way versus the other way.

Melissa

(45:30) Funny enough, to your point, Bill, I ended up working in the field more after that. (45:35) So there you go. (45:36) There you have it.

Bill

(45:38) Because that gave you juice. (45:39) You loved it. (45:40) It gave you energy.

(45:41) You’re like, this is great. (45:43) And again, as they say, if you find a job you love, you’ll never work another day in your life. (45:46) And that should be your job.

(45:47) Your job is to figure out that for yourself. (45:49) And that’s your job of your leader. (45:50) Because sometimes we can’t see the brilliance in ourselves.

(45:54) Because to us, it’s normal. (45:56) What you’re really, really great at is normal to you because you’ve always been really, really great at it. (46:01) But someone else would say, how did you do that?

(46:04) And you’re like, whatever. (46:05) So it’s both working together. (46:07) You’re basically saying to your boss, this is what gives me energy.

(46:11) This is what I love doing. (46:12) When I’m doing this, time flies. (46:14) And I can’t wait to go do it again.

(46:15) And they’re saying, when you did that thing, Melissa, the other day, when you took that thing on the board and you did this, I was amazed. (46:22) How did you do that? (46:23) And you’re like, I don’t know.

(46:26) And say, OK, well, let’s find ways for you to do that more often. (46:29) And that will then feed your energy, et cetera. (46:33) But again, we don’t do that because we’re too busy accomplishing stuff.

Melissa

(46:37) Staying busy in the stuff that’s not moving the needle. (46:39) I love when leaders can suss out things in their staff that they did not see otherwise in themselves. (46:49) I always think that that’s partially my job.

(46:51) Actually, not think. (46:52) I always think that’s my job is to find the gifts within people and help them see it within themselves so they can then share it out to the world. (47:01) I love this.

(47:02) It’s been so much fun chatting with you. (47:04) Bill, what is the best way for our listeners to learn more about what you do, connect with you, and get your book?

Bill

(47:11) Sure. (47:12) My website is www.catalystgrowthadvisors.com. (47:15) My book’s on there.

(47:16) My calendar link is on there. (47:18) My contact info, all that stuff. (47:20) I write twice a month.

(47:22) I have 200 or so articles on there. (47:26) I’ve actually already written six books that I hope will get published over the next three to five years. (47:32) Hopefully, they’ll be on there as well in the coming months.

Melissa

(47:34) I love it. (47:36) Thank you so much for being here today, sharing your time and knowledge with our listeners. (47:40) That’s the Executive Connect Podcast.