In this episode of Executive Connect, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Courtney Intersimone to talk about the unwritten rules of executive success. Courtney shares why strong performers often stay stuck, how visibility and influence really work inside organizations, and why good work alone is rarely enough to move you up. She breaks down the role of political intelligence, strategic self-advocacy, executive presence, and the danger of waiting for permission long after your career requires self-direction. She also explains how leaders can recover from setbacks, read organizational power more clearly, and rebuild confidence after being overlooked or even pushed out.

 

This episode is for ambitious professionals, senior leaders, and rising executives who want to stop playing small, navigate power dynamics with more skill, and position themselves for the next level without losing their integrity. Press play before another year passes waiting for someone else to hand you the role you already know you are capable of leading.

Chapters:

(0:30) Why some leaders become undeniable and others stay overlooked

(1:31) The unwritten rules of executive success

(4:48) The biggest misunderstandings that hold leaders back

(11:15) Political intelligence and influence inside organizations

(14:03) The difference between politics and toxicity

(22:10) Why many leaders feel like they are starting over

(23:04) How to move from problem solver to strategist

(30:58) Imposter syndrome at the highest levels

(40:08) Reading an organization like a system

(43:46) What a real career turnaround looks like

(50:46) Where to connect with Courtney

Courtney

(0:00) No one company determines your future and your good. (0:07) You determine that, and it is significantly a mental game, meaning you have to be so clear within yourself on what you know you can do and deliver. (0:21) And I’m not saying that you won’t feel a bit of a wobble after getting kicked out.

(0:26) It’s a big world out there. (0:27) There’s a lot of places that need you and what you can offer.

Melissa

(0:30) Some people walk into rooms and the energy shifts. (0:34) People listen, doors open, and opportunities seem to find them. (0:39) Meanwhile, others are just as smart and capable.

(0:43) Hit a ceiling they can’t quite see. (0:46) What separates the two isn’t luck or politics. (0:49) It’s the mastery of the unwritten rule of executive success.

(0:53) Today’s guest, Courtney Intersimone, knows those rules inside and out. (0:59) As a formal global head of talent at a Fortune 500 firm, she’s been in rooms where succession decisions are made quick. (1:10) She’s helped leaders rewrite their own playbook to rise with confidence, precision, and persistence.

(1:16) If you’ve ever wondered how to go from overlooked to undeniable, this conversation is your blueprint. (1:25) Welcome to the show today, Courtney.

Courtney

(1:28) Hey, it’s great to be here, Melissa. (1:30) Thanks for having me.

Melissa

(1:31) Now, you said the difference between good and exceptional leaders often comes down to mastering what you call the unwritten rule. (1:40) What are those and why do so many people miss them?

Courtney

(1:44) I think there’s a lot of unwritten rules. (1:47) Unwritten in the sense that no one sits you down and necessarily teaches you all of these overtly and they’re not literally written down somewhere. (1:57) You may stumble upon them through experience.

(2:01) But I think that some of the unwritten rules include, and one of my favorite ones is not waiting to be chosen. (2:11) What I find is that there are a lot of people who get stuck in the mentality that they were developed into starting in school, like try out for this, get the good grade on that, do X, or wait for someone to tap you and tell you you’re ready for the next level. (2:33) I find that there are a lot of people well into their 30s, 40s, 50s even, who are still operating from this place of waiting for somebody else outside of them to tell them that they’re ready for the next big thing.

(2:47) And one of the unwritten rules is at a certain point in your path, and I couldn’t tell you exactly when that is, but I would just advise you to assume it sooner than later. (2:56) At a certain point in your path, there isn’t that person outside of you that’s going to tell you you have to decide that you’re ready for the next step and you need to start operating as if you’re already at that next level, even before you really are. (3:11) And there’s other unwritten rules, but to me, that is the foundational one.

(3:16) Because as I said, too many people are just in this perpetual state of proving and waiting, as opposed to just showing up and being. (3:29) And obviously, you have to do. (3:30) And obviously, you have to legitimately…

(3:36) I hate this phrase because it’s so overused, but I’m going to use it anyway, add value. (3:43) That’s kind of gotten a little bit empty with overuse, but you can’t just proclaim yourself the CEO or the C-suite executive. (3:54) I mean, it’s more than that.

(3:55) You actually have to take action and demonstrate why you’d be worthy of operating at that level and steering the strategy, defining and steering the strategy. (4:05) At a higher level. (4:06) But if you’re waiting for somebody to tell you that’s available to you, you’ll be waiting until your retirement party and it’s never going to happen.

(4:15) So that, to me, is one of the biggest rules. (4:18) Let me pause there because I could go on, but I don’t want to…

Melissa

(4:21) Yeah, no, no, no. (4:22) It’s great.

Courtney

(4:22) And you know what?

Melissa

(4:23) I couldn’t agree more. (4:24) I think in my career, it’s always been that. (4:26) I don’t think there’s a single job or a single role or a single time I wasn’t too old or too young or didn’t have enough skills or had too many skills or I was overqualified and underqualified.

(4:36) It’s always there, like you say. (4:39) And so I love that. (4:40) So which ones of the underwritten rules cause the most damage when leaders misunderstand it?

Courtney

(4:48) Well, I think that’s a big one because it leads you to just sort of putting your future and your potential and what you do with it too much in the hands of someone outside of yourself. (5:04) Right? (5:04) So it’s an abdication of your God-given, whether you believe in God or not, isn’t the point, but sort of you’re born with agency.

(5:16) You can take action in the world, right? (5:18) And if you get yourself in a place where you’re rendering yourself unable to take action because you’re waiting for a permission slip for somebody else, again, I think that’s one of the most deadly. (5:34) Another unwritten rule, or maybe it’s not that it’s unwritten per se, but people just seem to wake up late to it.

(5:42) Some people, many people, is the, you know, thinking that if I just do good work, you know, everything will follow. (5:59) As opposed to dealing, whether you like it or not, whether you think it’s fair or not, doesn’t matter. (6:06) But are you operating within the human system that any kind of organization for profit, not for profit, you know, I don’t care what size it is.

(6:16) As I like to tell people, whenever there’s more than two people in a room, you have politics. (6:20) Why? (6:21) Because, you know, there’s different points of view and perspectives about whether we should go straight, make a left turn, make a right turn, and someone’s going to influence that decision.

(6:31) And there may be, you know, politicking about whose way forward gets to win. (6:37) My point is, if you think that the only thing that’s going to move you ahead is simply doing good work, you’re, you know, and I can’t tell you how many, again, very smart, talented people, pretty far along in their careers, already operating at executive levels in some cases, would come to me and rant and rave about why it should be a meritocracy and why my work should speak for itself. (7:07) So they’re related, but with some slight differences.

(7:12) The work should speak for itself is this lack of understanding that you’ve got to also be your own PR agent. (7:19) You’ve got to enlist others around you in being your PR agent. (7:24) And I don’t mean in a gross way, but everyone is, you know, getting so much information thrown at them at any given time.

(7:31) You know, upward management is focusing on lots of different things. (7:35) Oftentimes, there’s no attention on you unless something goes horribly wrong. (7:39) Like, are you telling them the story about the things that you did in the course of your leadership of a team to actually, you know, make a difference?

(7:47) So you do have to go the next step and can’t assume that everyone’s aware of exactly what you did and why they should care. (7:53) Right. (7:54) The other piece, which is, you know, more about navigating politics and getting comfortable with the use, the accumulation, and the yes, ethical, but the ethical use of power is another thing that I find people, you know, they may stumble upon and figure out how to do it.

(8:18) But there are a lot of people not understanding why they need to attend to this, learn about it, and take action to navigate things, you know, with more intention. (8:28) And they will, because they’re not tuned into that, or they don’t want to believe it’s important, or they think it’s only for people who are, you know, jerks and, you know, you know, mean, backstabbers and stuff. (8:44) That’s not the case.

(8:46) But anyway, they fall back on, I’m a good student. (8:49) I’m a, you know, I’m a good doobie. (8:52) I did all the work.

(8:53) You should reward that. (8:55) And it’s just not realistic. (8:57) So sorry, I know I’m throwing a bunch of different things out there, but it’s like the panoply of all these things that are what I call the unwritten rules.

(9:07) So again, it’s not that people have never quite heard of them before. (9:11) So maybe unwritten rule, you know, we could debate how I’m labeling it. (9:16) But they’re under attended to because people want to, who knows what the myriad reasons are.

(9:25) But I think a lot of times people just don’t know how to address them. (9:29) They feel like they’re going to have to become something that they don’t want to be, you know, and they have a lot of negative baggage associated, whether that’s, you know, I don’t want to be, you know, the attention hog. (9:48) I don’t want to have to be beating my chest, telling everyone how great I am.

(9:53) I hate those kind of people. (9:54) I don’t want to, you know, appear like an empty suit. (9:57) You know, this is on visibility and stuff.

(10:00) And they’re neglecting the reality that you can be visible and you can use certain tactics to raise your visibility without appearing like, I don’t want to curse, but, you know, like a jerk. (10:12) Similarly with what, there’s so much baggage around the term politics and there’s a lot of baggage around, you know, the term power. (10:21) And it’s generally negative.

(10:23) And so a lot of people sort of push that aside. (10:26) You know, my favorite line is like, oh, I don’t do politics. (10:29) I don’t get involved in that.

(10:31) And it’s like, well, that’s great, but politics is happening anyway. (10:34) So you saying you’re not getting involved just means that you’re outside of the frame and you’re giving up power. (10:42) And all of these things, whether you like it or not are necessary and important in order for you to continue to rise.

(10:50) If that’s what you want to do to greater, you know, to roles of greater accountability and greater consequence and greater influencing.

Melissa

(11:00) Ready to lead smarter and invest wiser? (11:03) On the Executive Connect podcast, we unpack executive strategies for wealth and influence. (11:10) Hit the subscribe button now.

(11:13) Don’t just watch act. (11:15) Yeah, no, no. (11:15) I’m just thinking politics is kind of that dirty word in leadership, but you talk about political intelligence as a vital skill.

(11:25) So how can leaders learn to navigate those complex, you know, complex dynamics with integrity while still kind of protecting their influence inside organizations?

Courtney

(11:40) I mean, I think there’s a number of different ways, but first and foremost, I would say is being awake to and aware of the fact that, you know, politics exists and see it as something to, you know, not avoid, but be curious about. (12:06) And don’t be afraid that being curious is going to turn you into, you know, some kind of conniving Machiavellian character, right? (12:16) There’s a wide, you know, wide swath from curiosity to, you know, being a nasty human being.

(12:27) The next thing is, and this is where just as an aside, and I haven’t made a real study of this, so it’s a hypothesis I have. (12:39) I think that in some ways, women naturally are better at navigating politics because we are socialized from a very early age to be attentive to the moods and needs of other people. (12:56) And we are socialized in our own friendship groups from a very early age to sort of navigate relationship dynamics.

(13:07) I don’t want to go off too much of a tangent on that, but…

Melissa

(13:11) But no, I love that. (13:13) I think it’s spot on. (13:15) And so one of the things, you know, I hear a lot, like, let’s go on that thread with women.

(13:22) Sure. (13:23) Is that they’re operating in a politically unhealthy culture inside an organization, right? (13:35) So there is politics in every company.

(13:39) Like, it’s happening whether you see it or not. (13:42) And women, it’s the nature nurturer. (13:44) So I do agree with you.

(13:45) I think women, you know, it’s the whole analogy of baby cries and woman can’t hear, but she knows. (13:51) And she walks upstairs to check on the baby, right? (13:53) It’s the nature nurturer kind of thing.

Courtney

(13:55) Right.

Melissa

(13:56) But how do people respond to these unhealthy politics that are going on inside their company?

Courtney

(14:03) Yeah.

Melissa

(14:04) Well, I think we’d have to get…

Courtney

(14:09) So much to say. (14:13) One, I want to make a distinction between, and I don’t want to parse too much, but make a distinction between, you know, politics and toxicity. (14:23) Right.

(14:25) Not criticizing your use of the term, but I’m just saying this is part of the problem is that people hear the word politics and it sort of equates to, you know, toxic, a-hole, you know, behavior. (14:37) And that’s like beyond politics necessarily. (14:40) You know, I think of politics maybe in its most benign form is around influencing and figuring out whose voice is going to get heard and why.

(14:52) Right. (14:53) And, you know, think about it in terms of if you watch, you know, what we call politics, you know, in terms of people in government, you know, in elected office, people who are trying to get certain, you know, laws passed or whatever. (15:08) And I’m not looking to go down a rabbit hole and talk about political realities, but I’m just saying, what is it really all about?

(15:16) It’s about whose say gets actually done and executed. (15:22) And is it necessarily the person with the objectively, and is anything objective anyway, but, you know, objectively the best idea, or is it the person who’s able to rally enough support for their idea, right? (15:39) And that’s what gets it through.

(15:42) Just, and I’ll get back to the other point about toxicity in a second. (15:45) I’m not ignoring it, but my point is, I just want to bring us back on politics to saying at a very basic level, this is what it is. (15:52) When you’re, you know, whether it be in private life or in your professional life, but let’s talk about the professional arena because that’s what we’re here to talk about.

(16:01) You know, as a leader, at ever higher levels of, you know, influence and accountability, you have an agenda. (16:09) You have things you’re trying to get done. (16:11) What you want to get done, maybe at odds with what somebody else in the company wants to get done.

(16:18) Now, because of that, is that other person going to fight you? (16:22) How do you get them on side? (16:24) Do they matter or not to the thing that you’re trying to get done?

(16:27) Do they have potential influence on whether it moves forward or not? (16:31) If they do, how do you get them on side? (16:34) And part of that, I mean, this is what politics is.

(16:37) It’s playing the game of chess or stratego. (16:41) You know, it’s strategic relationship management. (16:45) It’s understanding whose point of view do I need to get on my side of the street in order to get this thing done?

(16:55) And part of that is also understanding what does this other person need and want? (17:04) You know, and what are they going to feel threatened by? (17:09) You know, what do they want to avoid at all costs?

(17:14) You know, what are the points of leverage that I might have? (17:18) Who else influences that other person? (17:20) Can I get them on my side and use them as a proxy to help influence them?

(17:24) So I’m not trying to avoid all the more negative stuff, but I do want people to understand, like, this is part of what politics is. (17:30) It’s influencing. (17:32) It’s influence management.

(17:33) And it’s all about, you cannot get things done alone. (17:37) And you’re not always going to get things done. (17:43) Your ability to get things accomplished and over the line is often, again, the more senior you go, the more true this is, dependent on other people supporting it, or at least not attacking it or trying to derail it.

(17:58) And so this is where things start to change between I’m just going to work really hard. (18:04) You could work 24-7 and you still might not get the thing done because it’s not all about the thing. (18:10) You need these other people.

(18:12) And if they want to put the kibosh on it because, you know, who knows for whatever reason, but, you know, it doesn’t fit their view of the world, that’s where things can get like this. (18:22) Or, yes, I think a lot of times what people think about when they think of politics is also more about somebody else wants my job or somebody wants to make me look bad so that I fail so that they can, you know, take my job. (18:36) And that’s one of the places where toxicity can come in.

(18:42) And it’s, you know, I think what I would say there is it’s hard to give a broad general statement of what to do because every situation comes with its own nuances and trade-offs. (18:58) And I’m not trying to be difficult here, but this is where like giving one uniform answer is just difficult. (19:04) But I work on these things with people all the time.

(19:06) And, you know, some of it can come down to just being aware of the games that this other person is playing and then finding a way to thread around them. (19:18) Sometimes it means actually directly confronting somebody and calling them on their BS. (19:26) But that’s not always the best strategy, right?

(19:29) It really, you know, because again, you’re constantly running this calculus of if I do this to this person, how might they respond? (19:37) And who else are they gonna, you know, who else is already in their corner that may be more powerful than me? (19:43) And so I need to tread a little bit carefully and find some other way to work around them.

(19:49) And then there are certain situations that are so incredibly toxic that you have to back up and say, do I even really wanna be here anymore? (19:59) And not see that as a failing on your part, but recognize that there are some environments that become so toxic that it’s not worth your energy and time. (20:13) Like the potential reward that you can get from staying is now so outweighed by the damage that’s being done from, you know, just a place where leadership is kind of rotting from the core that you need to make an intelligent choice for yourself about taking your value elsewhere.

(20:35) And there’s a whole other thing about that because people get in their head about, well, am I putting up the white flag? (20:43) Does that mean I’m a sissy? (20:45) Like, you know, like I couldn’t handle it and all this.

(20:48) And again, these are very individual conversations, but I think, you know, what I’d like people to know is, you know, while the grass is not necessarily greener, there are definitely places that are far more, again, I’m overusing the word, but toxic than others. (21:08) And it’s very legitimate and reasonable to get to a point where you say, I don’t have the life force energy to try to deal with this context anymore. (21:19) And because I value myself as much as I do, I’m gonna go elsewhere versus I have to stay here and prove somehow that I can survive in this very negative environment.

Melissa

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(22:13) I hear a lot of people say, well, I have to start over. (22:18) I mean, if I had a dollar for every time I heard somebody say, I’m starting over, I’m, you know, I’ve put all these years at this company. (22:25) I have all this kind of equity and, you know, stuff built off with this organization, whatever that stuff is.

Courtney

(22:32) Right.

Melissa

(22:32) But the truth is what you’re taking with you is all the knowledge, all the skills, all the things. (22:38) And so really having an accounting of what all that is, I think people underestimate. (22:43) And so, you know, I wanna talk a little bit about, so I used to be one of those kind of, you know, stuck as the go-to problem solver.

(22:53) We had an issue, it doesn’t matter what it was. (22:55) It could be an HR issue, you know, a facilities issue. (23:00) I just became this go-to problem solver.

(23:04) Yeah. (23:04) And it took me a lot of work to move from, I’m just a doer of whatever the doing is to a strategist. (23:12) So let’s talk a little bit about people that get kind of stuck in their technical expertise.

(23:20) And they’re just doing, like you said, working a bunch of hours. (23:23) Like how do we move them from technical expertise, whatever that may be, to true executive presence so they can lift and move up in their organization?

Courtney

(23:32) Yeah. (23:36) Such a good question. (23:38) Are you talking about someone who’s already on paper made the transition into a leadership role where they should be operating more strategically, but they’re not letting go of doing the technical stuff?

(23:52) Or are you talking about someone who’s aspiring to that strategic level, but no one sees them that way because they’re so, you know, they’re just perceived as being only a technical executor? (24:05) Or are you saying both?

Melissa

(24:07) I would just say both too, because I think there is a place where we get, you know, whatever the title is, it’s HR. (24:13) And we have this specific HR fund. (24:15) We have this specific marketing function.

(24:16) We have this specific engineering function. (24:19) There’s that, or there’s the opposite. (24:21) You might, you know, have a generalized title and you’re doing 50 different things and they don’t want to take you out of that role because you’re too valuable doing 50 things.

(24:30) And really what you want to do is engineering, but you can’t do engineering because you got to do these 50 other things. (24:36) I think both happen in our careers.

Courtney

(24:38) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (24:40) Well, let me start with, you know, the person who’s been promoted, you know, they were in a very, let me not say technical. (24:54) It’s not about being technical, but I think it’s the difference between execution, you know, a role where what you’re expected to do is execute the strategy versus design and oversee the execution of the strategy.

(25:08) And there’s a point on the path from, you know, frontline individual contributor to the C-suite. (25:15) And there’s various roles in between, but there’s a point in there where you’ve got to start to make the pivot from understanding your role as getting stuff done to looking around corners and planning a strategy and articulating it, rallying people around it and aligning resources to get that strategy executed. (25:40) And that’s the pathway from bottom to top.

(25:44) And it’s, I think when somebody has been promoted, you know, so that they have a, you know, a leadership remit that starts to require them more defining strategy, you know, this is another one of the problems is I don’t see people being taught this. (26:06) It’s like, they’re supposed to know that, well, now I, you know, like your value and the role you’re in is demanding something different than the role you were in yesterday. (26:22) No one always explicitly tells the person that.

(26:26) So the person keeps relying on doing what’s made them successful. (26:29) And in their mind got them the promotion, which is getting shit done. (26:35) Even if they’re getting shit done, not just by themselves, but through other people.

(26:40) So their mindset is very focused on what’s right in front of me. (26:44) What’s the here and now, what’s the deliverable. (26:47) And, you know, this gets tough because I’m not saying you should just sit there and think big thoughts.

(26:53) Most people need to be able to, you know, do both. (26:58) You’re not just gonna sit in a room and dream up strategy and have all your minions do it. (27:06) But I guess what I’m saying is the issue is a lack of awareness that a shift in what the role requires of you, you know, if you don’t have an awareness and no one’s really kind of giving you the memo that we’re looking for something different from you than just getting the stuff out the door.

(27:23) So you’ve gotta be aware of the fact that people might not tell you that. (27:26) And it’s not, by the way, it’s not because there’s some big mean cabal who wants you to fail. (27:31) I just find that everyone sort of assumes they’re like, hey, yeah, we’re giving you this role, great run with it.

(27:37) You know, and maybe you get some guidance from your next level leader, but they’re not really breaking it down for you until maybe it’s too late. (27:44) So you need to just sort of be aware yourself, like, hey, am I just doing the do here or am I kind of periodically at least rising up that metaphorical 10,000 foot level and saying, how are we doing what we do? (27:59) Is there a better way to do what we do?

(28:03) Could we get things produced in a way that, you know, better meets our client’s needs, whether those are internal extra clients, doesn’t matter. (28:13) Is there the way that we can do this with fewer head count? (28:17) You know, can we do this more efficiently and at a less costly rate?

(28:22) What are our competitors doing, right? (28:25) Again, it’s that taking that next level view of the big picture, like, why are we doing this anyway? (28:32) How does it really impact the outcomes of the overall business?

(28:36) What might be a better way? (28:38) And, oh, I think we need to be moving in this direction versus that. (28:42) And here’s how we’re gonna make the pivot.

(28:44) Now you’re thinking strategically versus just taking in what’s and turning the crank on what’s always been there. (28:52) So I don’t know if I’m answering your question, but I guess I’m just hammering home. (28:56) You, it’s incumbent on you, again, whether this fair or not, I live in the world of reality, you know, where fairness takes a backseat.

(29:07) Ideally, someone above you is like coaching you around this, mentoring you around this. (29:11) But if they’re not, you need to ask yourself, if I’m at least at a middle management level, or if I aspire to even more, if I wanna prove that I have the potential and the capacity to lead at a higher level, and I know that leading at a higher level requires more than just doing the do, but rather seeing, anticipating what could be better, what’s the next version of blah, blah, blah. (29:38) That’s what thinking strategically is all about.

(29:41) And so I need to evidence to stakeholders, superiors, that not only am I helping to lead the team to get done what we have to get done today, but I’m also building a vision for what could be even better, what’s next, how do we stay ahead of the curve? (29:56) And this is my suggestion on how we get there. (30:01) And so it takes a lot of self-discipline.

(30:03) It takes a lot of, you know, maybe carving out time that you feel you don’t have to do some of that thinking and ask some of those questions that are those 10,000 foot view questions versus just the working hard, doing what needs to be done. (30:19) Does that make sense?

Melissa

(30:21) Yeah, no, it does. (30:22) I think, you know, it’s really kind of something you said that I was thinking about, you know, I finally show up for a job, we get a new job and we expect the employer to do all the work. (30:34) Okay, you’re taking a VP role.

(30:36) These are your people. (30:37) We’re going to invest in training for you. (30:39) But then there’s this other side that you have to do your own work on yourself.

(30:43) It’s not the company’s responsibility to do everything for you and, you know, teach you how to build your voice and your confidence. (30:50) And so you really got to build your own confidence. (30:53) And it’s, you know, and I want to talk a little bit about that confidence building.

(30:58) And, you know, I have some friends in very senior executive roles at very large companies. (31:05) And I listened to, you know, the imposter syndrome. (31:09) They, like, I would say they’ve made it in their career.

(31:11) They’re working for a fortune 100 and a fortune, you know, 50 company. (31:16) They’re leading executive teams. (31:17) They have a seat at the table and they still have- They’re making seven figures plus, right?

(31:22) Seven figures, their salary, and they have this massive imposter syndrome. (31:26) Isn’t it amazing? (31:28) And I always want to like, you know, smack them around with my words and just say, what are you doing?

(31:35) You know, and it’s kind of like they’re hiding behind these bigger titles, but, you know, secretly with us and their families, they’re really uncomfortable in their, you know, their roles. (31:48) And so what do you see the root of all of that? (31:51) And how can, you know, leaders build self-trust when the stakes are really high?

(31:58) When you have these senior executive roles for these big companies, the stakes are high. (32:02) You know, they’re reporting their earnings. (32:05) They lead mega large teams.

(32:08) You know, the stakes are high.

Courtney

(32:10) Yeah, no, very. (32:11) So there’s a few things, some of which may be contrary to what you might expect. (32:21) One of them is get comfortable with the fact that this is actually, you know, you just said it yourself.

(32:32) This is actually very prevalent. (32:35) Most people experiencing the imposter syndrome, it’s like for them, they’re dirty little secret. (32:41) And they think that they’re the only ones or in a minority of people who feel this and that the fact that they’re feeling it is evidence that they are in fact imposters because a real executive, whatever, wouldn’t have these feelings.

(33:02) And I think that’s the first mistake. (33:04) Like I like to tell people all the time, here’s the thing, no one knows what the F they’re doing. (33:11) I mean, on one level, I mean, I’m not, you know, people do know what they’re doing, but like no one really knows.

(33:18) I think everyone loses it because again, there’s this hierarchy, there’s this appearance that we’ve elevated. (33:24) And of course, yes, people have more experienced life lessons, you know, or not just life lessons, but business lessons they’ve learned. (33:31) They’ve taken the hard knocks.

(33:33) They know, you know, they’re able to see patterns that maybe you don’t see yet. (33:37) You know, like it’s not that, you know, they’re just more practiced. (33:40) So yes, to that extent, they know what they’re doing.

(33:44) But when I say like nobody really knows what they’re doing, everyone’s kind of faking it to a certain extent because as you pointed out, so many people who appear to have quote made it when they’re being honest behind closed doors are like, I don’t know, I’m waiting for somebody to find out they made a mistake. (34:03) And unless you have a really, you know, huge ego and so forth, which I think is the minority, you’re feeling this. (34:18) So my only point is number one, recognize that this is actually not a fatal flaw and that actually you’re in really good company.

(34:25) And what I find is there’s almost an inverse relationship between people who are really successful and those who have imposter syndrome, like those two things actually go together more than you would think. (34:38) Now, the next part is how do you reduce your suffering around it? (34:42) Because it doesn’t feel good to constantly be in this, like waiting for the other shoe to drop, waiting to be just, you know, waiting for someone somewhere to discover the ugly truth that you really don’t belong where you are.

(34:57) And that, I mean, who wants to walk around feeling like that all the time? (35:00) So, you know, there it’s really about, (35:06) you know, number one, keeping in front of you, (35:11) metaphorically, if not literally, (35:13) all the things that you have figured out (35:16) over the course of your life (35:18) that at one point you didn’t know how to do (35:20) and that maybe you got thrown into the deep end of the pool, (35:25) you know, at earlier stages of your career (35:28) and it might’ve been terrifying (35:30) and you might’ve been white knuckling, (35:31) but you’ve obviously got through that (35:34) because you’re here now (35:36) and you’re doing this next challenge. (35:38) So, you know, building up and keeping yourself aware of all the things that you’ve already navigated when you started out, not knowing how you were gonna do it.

(35:49) I think that’s one thing. (35:50) I think the second thing, and I gotta say, I’m forgetting now who to attribute this to. (35:56) I think it’s Satya Nadella at Microsoft, but I’d have to confirm, but someone somewhere originated this concept of going from being a know-it-all to being a learn-it-all.

(36:13) And that’s a concept that I like to introduce to my clients, where it’s like your capacity and willingness to learn and figure things out is more important than a static set of knowledge or capability that you have. (36:33) And can that give you some comfort? (36:37) Because the imposter syndrome sort of suggests I should have arrived already.

(36:44) I should already know how to do every single aspect of the role that I’m in to be legitimate, i.e. to not be an imposter in this role. (36:57) And that’s just like not even possible for anybody. (37:02) So what if being in the role means you’re comfortable with the fact that you don’t know how to do everything, but you’re committed to using whatever resource or whatever resources you can avail yourself of to figure things out.

(37:17) And I’d even take it a step further, get comfortable with, and this is a really hard one for people, because you do have to show a certain amount of, you know, you wanna inspire confidence for followership and all the rest of it, but it’s okay to say, you know what, I’m not really sure, but here’s how we’re gonna go about figuring it out together. (37:40) That’s a much greater act of leadership, in my opinion, and it’s gonna inspire far more followership than someone who just comes out all the time and is trying to, you know, fill a chair, fill a suit, and be like, yeah, I’ve got it all figured out, I know everything, and I don’t need you to tell me anything. (37:58) So again, it’s taking stock of everything you’ve learned and accomplished to date, but again, remembering that you didn’t start out knowing it, just like we’re all born on this earth, nobody knows how to walk, we fall down a million times learning how to walk, we don’t give up, we don’t say, oh, I’m an imposter, I must not actually be a human because I don’t know how to walk.

(38:17) It’s like, no, you don’t know how to do that yet. (38:22) What are you gonna do to get there?

Melissa

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(39:36) So they may have known it 10 years ago or five years ago or two years ago, but the world has drastically changed in the last six months, right? (39:45) And so I think- And I think just sitting in the space of, like you were saying, we need to be constantly learning, growing and being aware of kind of what’s going on is really key. (39:59) And so I wanna talk about one of your specialties, which is reading an organization like it’s a system.

(40:08) So what does that actually mean? (40:11) And how can leaders learn from the sense that patterns of power, trust and influence play in real time in their roles?

Courtney

(40:23) Oh, okay. (40:24) So the question is how to read an organization like a system?

Melissa

(40:28) Yeah, so you talk a little bit about reading an organization like a system. (40:35) So in the workplace, what does that mean as it relates to trust in the organization, power, influence, all the kinds of things we were touching on?

Courtney

(40:46) Yeah, I mean, I say this jokingly to folks, I don’t literally mean become an anthropologist or to always be on the sidelines. (40:57) But again, it’s another form of taking like a bigger view and not just honing in on your little piece of the pie, but getting curious about and paying attention to what areas in the organization are getting the most allocation of funding? (41:25) Why are they getting that?

(41:26) What are they doing with it? (41:29) Whose initiatives and again, not just in your silo, but trying to take a broader view, which initiatives are getting the most visibility, the most play? (41:41) What seemed to be the interdependent between different parts of the organization?

(41:49) One goes up, one goes down. (41:51) Is there an interrelationship or is there not one there? (41:54) And I would take this down to a micro level then for maybe your immediate part of the organization, but like broaden your view a little bit.

(42:03) And again, start just paying attention to (42:07) and noticing whose ideas get the most attention, (42:12) who seems to get their stuff done, (42:14) who wins the argument more than others, (42:18) who’s being showcased, (42:21) whether at town halls or other kinds of forums, (42:26) who are the winners, who are the losers, (42:34) who seems to get more airtime (42:38) with top of the house leadership, (42:42) all these kinds of subtle tells (42:45) about where the power lies (42:48) and which way the wind is blowing.

(42:50) When one person, one executive in it, the best way to do this ideally, and not everyone has this perch, but when you’re part of a leadership team or you’re able to be present when a leadership team is working together, like literally in a meeting room, again, just paying attention to the body language, the who’s getting listened to, who gets cut off, when did they cut it cut off? (43:20) And just looking for patterns around that can all be very informative. (43:25) And again, you’re getting a little bit into, not a little bit, but you’re in observer mode and you’re just noticing, you’re not necessarily making a judgment about it, but you’re just sort of looking for connections and noticing first and foremost, who gets what they want and why does that seem to be the case and who doesn’t.

Melissa

(43:44) And so let’s unpack that a little bit more. (43:46) Now, I know you have guided countless leaders through their career turnarounds. (43:53) And so those are impressive and really shifting from plateauing in their career to peaking their career.

(44:03) Walk us through what that looks like in practice.

Courtney

(44:08) Sure. (44:09) So, first of all, it’s starting with getting really clear about what they want. (44:17) What does success really look like to you?

(44:23) What do they think is getting in the way? (44:25) I have certain things that I’m always looking for, going back to things like, who is helping, who’s on team, Melissa? (44:35) You know, is it just your boss that you’re waiting for to help elevate you?

(44:39) And now, by the way, your boss who had been your sponsor, there’s been a reorg, you’re not working for them anymore, maybe they left, whatever the case may be, they’re not able to do for you anymore. (44:53) Who else do you have? (44:55) And why is it that you, and not why is it, but rather, you know, getting people to cultivate a broader network of, dare I say, champions, or again, to come back to this notion of who’s on team, Melissa.

(45:11) So that’s one thing. (45:13) The second reason people fall off the rails is because they have a disconnect in understanding what’s really expected of them at this next level. (45:30) Like we talked about before, they’re still just focused on doing the do and thinking that that’s enough, as opposed to up-leveling to more of a, you know, more of a strategic place of operating.

(45:42) But sorry, my mind is going to some specific examples where things have fallen off for people. (45:49) It’s not always the case, but it’s often the case that they either anticipate that they’re going to be kicked out, or they have actually been kicked out of the organization. (46:00) And I’ve taken several people who’ve had that happen, and that is a very unnerving, to say the least, experience, because it, for them, feels like a huge, you know, like you’re not good enough anymore to do this work.

(46:22) And we really pressure test whether that’s objectively true, and look at how are you going to, you know, position yourself for your next opportunity and build up your confidence. (46:39) And again, there’s a lot of different phases to that. (46:41) But like, I’m just thinking of this one person in particular who found herself in a situation where she was riffed, you know, and she was already, you know, a high six-figure earner, you know, one step away from the true C-suite, two steps away from the CEO of a 50,000-person company.

(47:01) So again, like, this is someone who’s already very accomplished, great pedigree, both of employers, of schools, the whole nine yards, and she finds herself getting riffed. (47:12) And we turned things around for her, got her situated so she could get back in connection with what does actually make her great, that the fact that that one organization decided they’d need to make a change was not an indictment of her in totality, nor did we have to make the decision that that means she’s never going to be, again, able to attain the level that she was, much less go higher. (47:38) And within, you know, I want to say it was like five months, she landed her next role at an equivalent-tier organization at an equivalent distance from the CEO, making two times as much.

(47:52) Now, I don’t want to say that happens all the time, but now she’s completely turned around and she’s back on track to her original goal, which is, I really want to be the general counsel of, you know, a Fortune 100 financial services firm. (48:08) And seeing that as a real possibility, whereas when we first started working, coming off the heels of this, you know, restructuring where she was the one on the outs, I think at that moment, she was just thinking like, how am I going to get employed again? (48:23) And so a lot of it is just reconnecting you to, you didn’t suddenly lose all your value just because the deck chairs changed.

(48:32) And so getting people reconnected with their real value and understanding that no one company determines your future and your good, you determine that. (48:47) And it is significantly a mental game, meaning you have to be so clear within yourself on what you know you can do and deliver. (49:00) And I’m not saying that you won’t feel a bit of a wobble after getting kicked out, but it’s a big world out there.

(49:08) There’s a lot of places that need you and what you can offer. (49:13) And the other thing that I always share with folks is I have lots of stories of people who took a tumble and who rebuilt themselves. (49:23) And, you know, another example comes to mind of a woman who also was very senior, also two steps away from the CEO, had been, you know, very much in favor, you know, and then there was a new CEO.

(49:40) And to bring it down to the basics, I think she just kind of rubbed him the wrong way.

Melissa

(49:45) Yeah.

Courtney

(49:46) They can package it and something else. (49:48) But he was like, in essence, she needs to go. (49:51) She goes, she’s shattered.

(49:54) How can this be? (49:55) I’m this, I’m that, I did all this. (49:58) Probably thought like, you know, I’m screwed.

(50:01) And it took some time and she took some interim steps along the way. (50:05) Once again, she’s back now better than ever, like leaving that old role and that old company in the dust. (50:12) And I, and I think, you know, I’m not saying she didn’t sweat it out to get there, but it’s, you have to choose to decide what you’re going to make it mean that they let you go and not let that define what your future is going to be.

(50:27) And it’s, yes, easier said than done, but it’s possible. (50:31) Anyway, I know we’re out of time.

Melissa

(50:32) No, no, it’s true. (50:34) It’s such good stories. (50:35) I think they’re relevant and such good information.

(50:38) Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. (50:41) What is the best way for our listeners to connect with you and learn more about the good work you’re doing?

Courtney

(50:46) Yeah, the best thing to do is number one, for people to follow me on LinkedIn, CourtneyInnersimone, I post every single day. (50:53) There’s, you know, I’m constantly giving out lots of hopefully useful, free instruction on all the topics that we’ve talked about. (51:02) DM me on LinkedIn or send me an email, Courtney at CourtneyInnersimone.com.

(51:08) Very accessible, very responsive. (51:09) Would love to hear from people and connect.

Melissa

(51:11) I love it. (51:12) Thank you so much for being here today. (51:14) That’s the Executive Connect Podcast.