In this episode of Executive Connect, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Landon Kirk, an executive coach, chief people officer, healthcare leader, and licensed clinical social worker. Landon explains why leadership is emotional labor and why strong executives need more than confidence, authority, and performance metrics to lead effectively.

The conversation explores executive coaching, emotional intelligence, burnout, boundaries, workplace culture, and the inner work required to stay steady under pressure. Landon shares why leaders must create clear definitions of success, recognize the human needs behind performance, and address the systems that push committed employees toward exhaustion.

He also explains how culture works like a garden, why core values must be reinforced through behavior, and how leaders can combine empathy with accountability without losing either. This episode is for executives and managers who want healthier teams, clearer expectations, and cultures that do not quietly break as the organization grows.

 

Chapters:

(0:43) Meet Landon and the emotional reality of leadership

(1:59) What has changed in today’s workforce

(3:19) Setting clearer expectations for ambitious employees

(4:39) What executive coaching should address beyond performance

(6:19) Using trust to uncover leadership blind spots

(7:24) How coaching helps leaders confront difficult patterns

(9:07) Why psychology shapes business decisions

(9:26) The danger of changing personalities after a promotion

(12:09) How emotional intelligence becomes operational

(14:42) Leading people in high-stakes healthcare environments

(17:03) Leadership lessons that apply across industries

(19:23) Why promoting top performers can backfire

(20:34) Is burnout personal or organizational?

(21:47) How unclear expectations create exhaustion

(24:03) Why culture must be actively maintained

(24:54) The workplace culture garden explained

(27:07) Holding authority without losing humanity

(27:34) Practicing empathic accountability

(29:27) How boundaries strengthen leadership

(33:08) Providing stability during uncertainty and change

(36:54) What happens when leaders avoid inner work

(39:47) What a healthy leadership team looks like

(42:18) Why leaders must model their stated values

Landon

(0:00) My favorite way to kind of like help people understand culture is honestly through the metaphor of a garden. (0:06) So just think about your business and your culture is your garden. (0:09) What happens if you don’t take care of your garden by default?

(0:13) You get weeds. (0:15) It’s amazing, we don’t naturally get beautiful flowers and vegetables and fruits, do we? (0:19) If we just let it play out.

(0:21) The only way we get those positive things is if we’re constantly watering, fertilizing, weeding the garden. (0:28) That’s how a culture is. (0:29) So it’s amazing how many leaders just say, I’ve told you what our core values are and they walk away or they put them on the wall or they put them in a PMP manual.

(0:36) And then they wonder why it’s not better. (0:38) Well, it’s because you’re doing nothing to water, fertilize, weed out problems.

Melissa

(0:43) Most leaders are told to be decisive, confident, and unshakable. (0:48) But here’s what they’re not told. (0:50) That leadership is emotional labor.

(0:53) That burnout does not announce itself. (0:56) And that most of the performance problems aren’t actually performance problems at all. (1:01) They’re actually people’s problems disguised.

(1:05) Today’s guest works exactly at that intersection where business pressure meets human reality. (1:12) Landon Kirk is an executive coach, chief people officer, multi-site healthcare leader, and licensed clinical social worker. (1:21) He’s worked with leaders carrying real weight, not just revenue, but responsibility for people, culture, and outcomes that actually affect lives.

(1:31) This episode is about executive coaching, not the performative version, the real version, the kind that leaders need to clearly think under pressure. (1:42) Leading humans, not organizational charts and building cultures that don’t quietly break down on the way up to success. (1:50) If you’re leading people, this one’s for you.

(1:54) Welcome Landon.

Landon

(1:56) Thank you so much. (1:57) I appreciate you having me.

Melissa

(1:59) Now leaders today feel more exhausted than ever, I would say, but it’s not just the workload. (2:07) What do you feel has actually changed in the workforce today?

Landon

(2:11) Oh my gosh. (2:11) I think so many things. (2:13) I think our workforce dynamics have changed quite a bit.

(2:18) We had the boomers and then you have the Gen X, but then it seems like these generations have just changed rapidly. (2:27) There’s a lot to like. (2:28) One of my favorite things about this generation is actually helping leaders lean in and connect to this workforce because they want transparency and they want immediacy and they want to be part of solutions.

(2:40) I think that’s just an exciting challenge in a lot of ways, but also just the political climate where we work and there’s tariffs and there’s COVID events and there’s economic threats. (2:51) It’s not easy to be a leader right now.

Melissa

(2:54) Yeah. (2:55) I think the time we’re in, it’s constant change. (3:01) It really plays on the exhaustion of the day-to-day.

(3:05) I feel like leaders, Kerry, are really working in the gray. (3:10) There’s not as much black and white. (3:12) I feel like 20 years ago, I felt like I had more black and white than I do now leading.

(3:19) How has employees’ expectations shifted alongside that with the pressure on themselves in the workforce?

Landon

(3:29) Employee expectations? (3:31) I think it starts with leaders first. (3:36) I think leaders have to set those expectations.

(3:40) I think sometimes leaders don’t or they think that the workforce was like when they were an employee, not a leader. (3:48) I just think that we have to adjust, like I said just a minute ago, to our workforce. (3:54) I think we have to be more clear, not just communicating in words, but in writing, and really speak in outcome language, because that’s one of the great values of this workforce is they want to know how to win.

(4:06) They want to be successful. (4:07) I don’t think that’s a negative thing, but that’s on us as leaders to provide that clarity in writing and in outcome language, because especially when you made a good hire, they want to know how to be successful and how they can carve out a career for themselves.

Melissa

(4:22) Yeah, absolutely. (4:23) I would agree with you. (4:25) I’ve talked to young leaders, and they’re always like, okay, what’s next?

(4:31) When can I get a raise? (4:32) When can I move up? (4:33) When can I take over?

(4:35) They’re very ambitious to go the distance. (4:39) I want to talk a little bit about executive coaching behind and beyond the actual performance of it. (4:47) When people hear executive coaching, at least I think about KPIs, outputs, but that’s where you start.

(4:54) What are they actually missing in their executive coaches?

Landon

(5:00) Yeah, I think it starts with, like most things, relationship. (5:04) You’re only going to be vulnerable and really share the corners of your life if you trust the person. (5:12) I think trust comes from time and evidence.

(5:14) How do you do that? (5:15) You got to build relationships. (5:16) You got to be consistent.

(5:17) You got to be somebody that they can lean on in their dark moments, not just their high moments and giving them a high five, but, hey, can I trust this person with some of my shame, some of my embarrassment, some of my imposter syndrome? (5:29) That’s one of the big realities and takeaways that I’ve had since being an executive coach, is that most people actually do struggle to a degree with some imposter syndrome. (5:40) I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

(5:41) I think it’s fine. (5:41) I think it keeps you sharp and hungry and growth space. (5:47) But yeah, I just think that so many people kind of think that I’m going to go to a coach and I’m going to get more accountability or KPIs, as you say, and that’s part of it.

(5:56) That is part of it. (5:57) You do want to have some results, but I don’t think you get there unless you have trust, partnership, relationship, collaboration, that I’m vulnerable back to my clients, that I can share my struggles so that they can know that I’ve been there, done that. (6:12) If I just come from this place of judgment or even that I don’t understand, that’s just not going to resonate.

Melissa

(6:19) Yeah. (6:20) And I feel like traditional performance frameworks fall a little bit short. (6:24) I feel like meets expectations, doesn’t meet expectations, exceeds expectations.

(6:29) But I think we all have blind spots. (6:33) And one of the things I love about executive coaches I’ve had is I didn’t even realize the blind spots I had until they brought it forward. (6:42) And they brought it forward to your point because I had a relationship with them.

(6:46) And they were able to pull that out. (6:50) And so I think those internal narratives that we kind of tell ourselves really affect the external outcomes and how we perform. (7:03) And so maybe the question is, how do you see them affecting external outcomes in the workforce?

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Landon

(7:24) I mean, there’s a, it’s funny because my background, my training really is as a clinician, not as an executive coach, but it’s actually been a perfect training ground for like, boy, I understand how to do the therapy side with somebody. (7:38) That’s not the line I do with my clients. (7:40) I keep it more professional, but there’s a lot of similarities because they do have to discover themselves.

(7:46) They do have to look in the mirror and how I actually hold up that mirror for them to challenge their blind spots, to turn their head towards those gaps is just a critical component of it. (7:58) Because if I come at them in a way that it’s going to bring up their defenses or that I’m going to challenge it too early, that they don’t think it’s an issue, that’s just going to backfire because then it’s not only going to hurt the trust and relationships, but they’re never going to get the chance to look at that opportunity. (8:15) And so it’s an art.

(8:17) I mean, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a little bit of a science to it, but it’s an art. (8:20) And I think that’s, it’s an art because it’s, you have to read people. (8:23) You have to have relationship.

(8:24) Like we said, you have to be able to know what makes people motivated and tick. (8:29) And you know, when I was a client of executive coaching for many years, and there are times if I’m being really honest, that I would look at my calendar and see a 3pm call and I’m like, I’m exhausted. (8:40) I have been wearing the weight of the world today and I’m going to go get beat up right now.

(8:45) That’s not very exciting. (8:47) And yet you just lean in and you do it anyway, because you know that you just need it. (8:51) And so that’s not for everybody.

(8:52) There’s a lot of people that at those midnight hours, just kind of want to cancel and reschedule because it’s hard. (8:59) And I, I, I’m proud of the times that I persevered and I’m really proud of the clients that I work with. (9:04) You kind of hang in there and keep pushing forward too.

Melissa

(9:07) Yeah. (9:08) And, and psychology shows up in business decisions. (9:11) It’s part of the way we kind of make decisions.

(9:15) And so I think that’s what your clinical background, it brings something very different than most people have. (9:21) So how does that change how you coach leaders?

Landon

(9:26) Yeah, that’s a good one. (9:28) I find that you just never really shed the human component. (9:32) I’m amazed at how many people that I’ve seen in my journey, kind of shockingly.

(9:36) So there’ll be this great authentic person, and then they get promoted or they get a new title and they feel like they have to have this personality change. (9:46) And it is like, what is happening? (9:47) Why are you different all of a sudden?

(9:49) Like that actually makes me trust you less because you feel like you have to put on this persona and you’re trying to be somebody that you’re not. (9:56) And that’s not what people trusted. (9:58) That’s not why you’re in this place.

(9:59) Why do you feel like you need to do that now? (10:01) And because I think, I think they do it though, because they feel like they’re supposed to flex. (10:05) They’re supposed to do it differently.

(10:07) They’re supposed to maybe be more command and control where that’s just not my style. (10:11) That’s not me. (10:12) That’s not what I a lot of leaders are.

(10:15) I think they’re more like you want to lead from a place of relationship. (10:17) You want to lead from a place of trust. (10:19) They want to say, gosh, you know what?

(10:20) I’m going to really listen to Landon because not only does he have the experience, but he also knows my experience and he’s seen my weaknesses and he still is challenging me. (10:30) He believes me. (10:31) He believes in me.

(10:32) And I’m going to borrow some of that, even if I don’t believe in myself. (10:35) And that’s pretty powerful. (10:36) But if I just come at this from a task, a KPI, as you said, you know, they might give me the bobblehead, but I don’t know that they’re going to engage.

Melissa

(10:45) And I would agree with you. (10:46) I think back to when I got my first leadership role 20 something years ago, I had that attitude switch. (10:53) And for me, it was more because I felt like I had to know everything.

(10:57) Like the leadership is depending on me to lead the team and I need to lead it with all the knowledge. (11:04) And so, you know, the older I got, the more that I learned that that was very false and that was the wrong, the wrong way to do it. (11:11) But I think, you know, thinking back to that, I probably, I unintentionally probably projected some stress onto my team because I was a really young manager.

(11:24) And so I was probably, you know, strung out a little bit, trying to figure everything out and keep everything together. (11:31) And I accidentally probably projected some of that onto them. (11:36) And so I think, you know, emotional intelligence plays a huge part of leadership.

(11:43) In my opinion, I think the best leaders I’ve worked with a lot of people who had no emotional intelligence, and I’ve worked with people who had emotional intelligence. (11:56) The difference is the teams work better together and we get places versus somebody at the top making all the decisions and they really trust their team kind of to your point. (12:09) And so talk to me a little bit about, you know, the the emotional intelligence side and where does it actually become operational in the workforce?

Landon

(12:22) That’s a good one. (12:23) Yeah, I, I think it’s one of the most underrated traits. (12:27) And unfortunately, at least my opinion, it’s more of what I would call a red trait, meaning, why does it put all traits in a green, yellow, red, emotional intelligence is red, it’s a hard thing to naturally learn.

(12:41) Most people kind of have intuition and awareness and emotional intelligence without being trained on having emotional intelligence. (12:48) If you don’t have it, it’s not that you can’t develop it. (12:52) It’s just that it’s red, it’s extremely hard, versus like a competency or a trait like finance.

(12:57) If you don’t know that we can teach you. (12:59) And you learn that. (13:00) But emotional intelligence is much more complicated.

(13:03) So leaders that don’t have it usually do struggle because they don’t know how to have that relationship. (13:08) They don’t know how to read the room. (13:09) They don’t know how to lead differently.

(13:10) They don’t know how to flex their style. (13:13) If the team is maybe overwhelmed or unmotivated. (13:16) Somebody with EQ can read that and say, gosh, what does the team need from me today?

(13:20) How do I flex my style? (13:21) How do I maybe come at it with a different approach. (13:24) And it that’s a hard call to somebody who’s in if they don’t have emotional intelligence.

(13:29) So I would just caution leaders who are promoting people into places of leadership to really be very clear. (13:36) What are the traits and the competencies you need? (13:38) Because if you put somebody in a role that does need emotional intelligence and they don’t have it, I feel like you’re going to be set up to fail.

Melissa

(13:45) And I love that. (13:46) I love that you said that because I think about in my situation, I was a doer, an engineer, and I was good at doing, and they’re like, oh, she’s going to be great at leading. (13:58) And I know training.

(14:00) And so that was kind of my second role in engineering. (14:03) It was interesting to me. (14:04) I was lucky enough that I had emotional intelligence and I understood things like empathy and pieces of what I think there’s what 26 different like EQ traits or there are.

(14:17) And I see these people that are in management roles that have no emotional intelligence. (14:24) And when the pandemic happened and I knew people that worked for people without emotional intelligence, their teams just crumbled in though because their people were already stressed anyway. (14:37) And then compounding a person without emotional intelligence that’s stressed.

(14:42) And so I want to talk a little bit about kind of high stakes systems. (14:47) You know, you operated in health care. (14:49) Decisions aren’t abstract.

(14:51) They really impact people’s lives. (14:53) So how does leadership change in that environment?

Landon

(14:57) That’s a good one. (14:58) Yeah. (14:58) Especially when there’s lives at stake, right?

(15:00) We’re not making widgets. (15:01) We’re not pulling levers on the on the machine. (15:04) We are literally helping trying to help people.

(15:07) And so I think you just zoom out as a leader and say, you know, what what is our product? (15:13) What are we doing? (15:14) And for me, it was like our product is our people.

(15:17) That’s our product. (15:18) Like we are going to try to create change through people in people. (15:23) And so how do we do that?

(15:25) I think you have to do that by having a higher standard for what you who you let in the door, what your culture is really going to be. (15:33) So people ask me all the time after being a chief people officer for so many years. (15:37) Do I need a chief people officer?

(15:39) And I’ll say, I don’t know. (15:41) How important is the culture to your outcomes? (15:45) Oh, that’s a good question.

(15:46) It’s really important. (15:47) Well, tell me why. (15:47) And so as we start to unpack it, you know, if you can if you can be on headphones on the factory line, I’m not sure you need a chief people officer.

(15:55) But if you’re actually trying to create change through humans, which is your workforce, there’s probably a higher standard for your for your HR team, your chief people team, because they have to be so careful about who let in the organization, who has access to your clients, how are they creating that change? (16:13) And then the leaders over those people, that’s even more of a standard, because they have to be so attuned. (16:19) They have to have great emotional intelligence, they have to know how to lead people, they have to know when somebody’s ready to tap out or snap.

(16:26) So I can read that. (16:27) And maybe they’re getting red and like, okay, I need to I need to pull this person, you know, off treatment, because they’re going to blow a gasket soon. (16:34) But I can read that, because I have emotional intelligence.

(16:37) And if you don’t have that, you’re in trouble.

Melissa

(16:39) You know, and I agree, I think when systems are under stress, people often make bad choices sometimes, because they’re not in their rational mind, if that’s the right term. (16:53) But there’s like in healthcare and in hospitals, there’s, you know, you’re teaching people to lead decisions when they’re where there’s no room for error, and where people’s lives are at stake. (17:03) And so I think about, you know, when I was younger, we had to practice fire drills in, you know, elementary school if something were to happen.

(17:12) And so I was practicing and training for what should happen. (17:15) I think about like, in healthcare, I always feel like they’re really practiced and really organized. (17:21) So if there was something that happened, they knew, you know, who to call who to how to escalate it, what’s the next line of defense?

(17:31) So what lessons would you say transfer from healthcare into other industries?

Landon

(17:37) That’s a good one. (17:38) I think the things we’ve talked about transfer, I mean, I have clients in every industry, you know, whether that’s manufacturing, marketing, finance, construction, law, medical, behavioral healthcare, I think, I still think I stand by what I said, relationships are still going to be who people follow. (17:59) Not just the subject matter expert, not just the person who’s been the ultimate contributor, but somebody who’s literally going to care about them as a person.

(18:08) We know it’s cliche, it’s been said a million times, but it’s still true. (18:12) People really don’t care how much you know, until they know how much you care, like they’re not going to follow that until they know that. (18:18) And so you being attuned to that, and just being aware of that and caring about them as a person, as well as of course, their performance is just a huge part of it.

(18:26) And I think I’ve been a little stunned, that is not natural. (18:30) For some people, I think that they have been rewarded their whole life for being a contributor for being the tiger just to get things done to not necessarily worry about how they’re impacting people as they’re winning. (18:43) And then they get promoted.

(18:44) And then they don’t know what to do to lead people other than to kind of be the taskmaster and to drive and drive and then they wonder why people don’t follow. (18:53) And so that’s just been, I think that’s been one of my lessons learned is like, wow, some people have just never really learned leadership. (19:00) And so that’s a common ask is like, hey, can you train our leadership team on like a basic management framework?

(19:06) And some of these people have been in leadership for decades. (19:09) And they’re like, wow, this is profound. (19:11) I’ve never heard anything like that.

(19:12) And to me, it’s like, one on one stuff. (19:15) And so again, you’ll see you have different experiences, depending on the industries. (19:18) But I just think I don’t think companies invest in leadership and not leadership development.

(19:23) I just think that they’re, they kind of cross their fingers and they, they promote the high contributor and they just hope it works out. (19:30) But I think that’s a massive mistake. (19:32) In fact, if I’m pointing the thumb, most of my mistakes and people decisions were not necessarily bad hires.

(19:38) They were over promotions. (19:42) Because and then you’re stuck with two turnovers, because now you’ve lost the contributor and you got to find the new leader. (19:48) And so you got to be really careful about those promotions because I think it’s a totally different skill set than the contributor.

Melissa

(19:55) Yeah, I agree with you. (19:56) I think about, it’s funny, I’m, as you’re saying that I’m thinking about, you know, I have this real, real want to do well and, you know, very coachable, a very, you know, when a leader tells me, Melissa, you need to do more of this. (20:11) I’m very coachable.

(20:12) Okay, I’m going to work on this as a leader. (20:15) And I laugh because so many times in my career, Landon, I’ve had, you know, one month a manager say, okay, Melissa, you’re not being tough enough on your staff, you’re being really empathetic. (20:27) And the next month, they’re like, we need you to crack down on everyone.

(20:31) Everyone’s like, gotta do this thing. (20:34) So, you know, I want to talk a bit about burnout. (20:38) And I have had it framed, it being personal, it was my issue.

(20:43) I didn’t manage my time. (20:44) Well, I didn’t take care of myself. (20:47) I didn’t do what I needed to do to, to not have burnout.

(20:51) And so I know you see this differently. (20:54) And but I guess my question is, should leaders be blaming themselves for burnout? (21:00) Or should they be kind of looking back to the company that’s, you know, asking you to fly on a Sunday to get somewhere by, you know, eight o’clock in the morning across across the globe, and then question you at the end of the week, why, you know why you’re tired.

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Landon

(21:47) Love it. (21:48) You know, for me, my experience is two words come to mind to answer your question, and that’s expectation and success. (21:56) So what I mean is, most people, again, think most leaders believe that they’re clear in expectations.

(22:03) And I just don’t find that to be the case. (22:06) They’re not managing to an outcome, or they have really vague expectations or to do’s, but they’re not really managing. (22:13) This is what success looks like in your role.

(22:15) So some people get burned out, because they’re working so hard. (22:19) But they don’t know what success is. (22:21) They don’t know if they’re winning.

(22:22) They don’t. (22:22) And so I continue to find that young managers, they’ll see somebody who’s burned out, and they think they need a spa day, or they think, here, I’m going to pay for your massage. (22:31) Those are really nice things to do.

(22:33) And that could temporarily help. (22:35) But the reality is, the burnout is going to be there the next day, because we haven’t addressed the root problem. (22:41) And the problem is that person who’s burning out, probably needs to have a clearer path of how they can be successful, and they want to know how to win.

(22:49) And I think there’s such a great trait for people that are burning out. (22:52) What is that hidden trait? (22:53) Because people who don’t care, they don’t burn out.

(22:58) They don’t burn out, because they don’t care enough to burn out. (23:01) So we have to kind of channel that noble trait that we’re finding in whatever our industry is that are people that are burning out and say, boy, this is a person who cares deeply. (23:10) And so you say, do we blame us as leaders?

(23:11) I think you start with pointing the thumb. (23:13) I don’t think you blame, you know, I don’t think you ever blame the employee. (23:16) I think you say, gosh, what can I do to reframe success for this person?

(23:19) How can I better manage their expectations, for their workload or what outcomes are. (23:24) And that’s just been a lot more successful than me than throwing somebody a gift certificate at a spa day. (23:29) I don’t mean to be negative about it.

(23:31) It does help. (23:32) Like I said, it does help. (23:33) It’s quite a gesture too, because you can attune to somebody, you can show that you really value them.

(23:38) But it doesn’t solve it systemically, it’s going to be right back. (23:41) And so I think how you solve it is like, let me give you a sustainable, clear job. (23:47) Here’s what it looks like.

(23:49) And let’s manage that with each other. (23:51) If you get out of bounds, or you work too much. (23:54) What’s powerful that I keep finding is that people then if they still keep burning out, sometimes they just can’t say no to things too.

Melissa

(24:03) Yeah, and I love that. (24:05) I love that. (24:06) And I think, you know, I would argue that it’s a cultural thing.

(24:10) And, you know, I’ve been in organizations where, you know, if you weren’t on all the time, sun up to sun down, you know, you weren’t doing what you needed to be doing to, you know, move the needle or be, you know, a leader in the company. (24:24) And so I’m curious to get your perspective. (24:28) I think a lot of companies now are talking about culture.

(24:32) I think that’s a very popular topic right now, whether it’s the hustle culture, or the, you know, we’re one family culture, whatever kind of the stories are. (24:43) And so I want to get your perspective. (24:46) For those that have maybe not the best culture.

(24:50) What’s the fastest way for them to shift the culture?

Landon

(24:54) Yes, love that. (24:55) So I love to talk about this. (24:57) As you can imagine, my favorite way to kind of like help people understand culture is honestly through the metaphor of a garden.

(25:05) So just think about your business, and your culture is your garden. (25:09) What happens if you don’t take care of your garden? (25:12) By default, you get weeds.

(25:15) It’s amazing. (25:16) We don’t naturally get beautiful flowers and vegetables and fruits, do we? (25:19) If we just let it play out.

(25:21) The only way we get those positive things is if we’re constantly watering, fertilizing, weeding the garden. (25:28) That’s how a culture is. (25:29) So it’s amazing how many leaders just say, hey, I’ve told you what our core values are.

(25:33) And they walk away where they put them on the wall, or they put them in a PMP manual. (25:37) And then they wonder why it’s not better. (25:38) Well, it’s because you’re doing nothing to water, fertilize, weed out problems, you’re letting it play out.

(25:45) And we all know what happens when you do that the garden is taken over, and nothing productive happens. (25:51) And so you really have to attend to your culture like you would a garden. (25:54) It’s discipline, it’s rewarding things.

(25:56) And so that’s my favorite thing to do is not so much penalize the culture killers, you do have to do that. (26:01) And you have to be fast to do that. (26:02) But you have to reward the behavior that you want to be.

(26:06) And you got to do that as publicly as possible. (26:08) So if you just privately pull something inside and say attaboy, that only goes to that person. (26:12) But if you can publicly recognize and reinforce people that are living the culture, which I like to define the culture of the company is to the core values.

(26:22) Because it’s such a catchy term, but people don’t know what the tangibility of a culture even means. (26:27) And so I say, well, define it in behavioral terms, which should be your core values, core values should call people to behavioral expectations that you have. (26:37) And we’re allowed to set those expectations of behavior as leaders, we are we’re allowed to do that.

(26:41) We’re allowed to say we need you to behave like this within our core values. (26:44) We don’t want you to be a robot, we want you to just behave within the guardrails of our core values. (26:50) And then you have to just stay on it and stay on it and stay on it rewarded as much as you possibly can build systems around the culture.

(26:58) Because otherwise, like I said, you’re going to have a garden with weeds, and then you get frustrated because you may have set the expectation, but you did not stay on top of weeding out the problems.

Melissa

(27:07) Yeah, I could I absolutely agree. (27:09) So let’s talk about holding authority without losing your humanity and the process. (27:15) And I often find that we have to kind of choose either be human and empathetic with our emotional intelligence and you know, no problem, you made a mistake or be kind of that authoritative, you know, kind of personality.

(27:31) So how do you hold the line between both of them?

Landon

(27:34) Yeah, and I love that question, because I do think the magic is to try to be both. (27:38) I think it’s the magic of everything we’ve talked about, which is hold the space for the relationship, because people will follow you, but also have expectation and follow through. (27:46) Because I’ve seen some leaders who are so good at the relationship, but that they suffered with the expectation, because they know so much about the person, they know what’s going on with them personally, they know their mental health struggles.

(28:01) And so out of compassion, they let things slide. (28:05) And that sounds really nice. (28:07) So the problem is now there’s a behavior and a precedent set, where this person can sometimes take advantage of that.

(28:12) And then the leader has a really hard time bringing that in. (28:16) And so that’s a really hard line to walk. (28:18) I totally agree.

(28:19) But I think you I don’t think it’s binary, I think you have to try to hold space to say, I have to care about my people, as people, not just for the work they do, but I care about them as a human being. (28:31) And I have expectation. (28:33) And it’s okay that you have expectation.

(28:34) In fact, you shouldn’t have expectation, but it should be clear expectation. (28:37) And you got to hold space for both. (28:39) Because what that does for me is it frees me up to have empathic accountability.

(28:44) Seriously, like, so when I set the expectation, and I know it’s clear, and somebody’s falling off track, I’m allowed to be curious with them. (28:50) Hey, Melissa, like, I feel like we have been really clear on the expectations. (28:54) We’ve gone over it a couple times.

(28:55) And are you okay? (28:57) It seems like you’re kind of struggling these days, because things are a little off. (29:00) Can you help me understand so I could be a better support for you?

(29:03) And then, I mean, it’s gonna be hard for you to answer that. (29:05) If you’re not, you know, if something’s not wildly off. (29:09) But again, going back to the other question, if I’m just a hard nosed person who doesn’t care about you, and I’m just worried about the outcome, I’m gonna shut you down, you’re gonna quit, I’m not gonna get anything out of you.

(29:18) So it’s a hard thing to do. (29:20) And it does take practice and experience. (29:21) But I think leaders out there have to try to do everything they can to hold space for both.

Melissa

(29:27) I agree. (29:27) I think, you know, it’s also one of the other things I love is kind of this boundaries word, holding kind of, I’ve had to learn this, I would say, over the last five years of being in management, you know, because there’s always one more thing, and one more thing, and one more project, and one more project, and just kind of, you know, hold the line on, you know, my kid has a soccer game. (29:53) I’m like, you know, just being really transparent, really clear, hold a boundary, and still communicate, I’m here, I’m committed, I want to get this thing done.

(30:03) Here’s how far I got. (30:05) And so I find boundaries are really a key way to kind of build the relationship. (30:12) And also, you know, communicate, you know, with your manager on what the expectations are both ways.

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Landon

(30:58) Yeah, I think you’ve kind of said it perfectly. (31:01) I think there’s such a dovetail with boundaries and expectations, you know, so when people don’t meet an expectation, I think the question for a leader is, is that a boundary violation for you? (31:11) Are you going to do anything about that?

(31:13) It’s really easy to be a manager when you have a team of eight players, and they all hit their goals. (31:16) And every anybody can be a manager in that situation. (31:20) The question is, how do you be a manager when things get off track, when expectations aren’t met?

(31:26) And then I think it’s one of those moments to your point of, is this a boundary that I need to address? (31:33) Or is it just a fallen expectation? (31:36) So, you know, it’s probably my behavioral health care background, but boundaries often are confused with just, you know, a personal space, or emotional boundaries.

(31:48) But I think they apply to work. (31:50) I think that I think it just dovetails into expectations that, hey, I need you to do this. (31:54) My boundaries for you are to be on time, to care about our customers, to do good work, to meet your outcomes, to lead with empathy, whatever those things are.

(32:03) And if you don’t do that, I think the leaders have to say, what am I going to do when I don’t have this? (32:08) Am I going to address this, you know, with this person?

Melissa

(32:12) Yeah, and I think that’s the key is having those kind of candid conversations. (32:17) And, you know, I think it was Brene Brown that said, you know, clarity is kindness, or I don’t know, somebody said being clear is kind.

Landon

(32:27) Clear is unkind, yeah.

Melissa

(32:28) Yeah, whoever said that line. (32:30) I think it’s so true to communicate that. (32:34) And you’re also building the relationship in the process.

(32:38) And, you know, and I find, you know, being a mother makes me a better leader. (32:44) It doesn’t make me a less leader. (32:46) I feel like I am a better leader because I have children.

(32:50) And so understanding that I need to get to a child soccer game, or I need to get somewhere, holding that line, communicating it, you know, making sure leadership is okay with it. (33:00) And they’re like, yeah, do your thing. (33:01) And so we’re clear.

(33:03) And so people aren’t wondering, like, where’s Melissa? (33:05) Why is she not on? (33:06) Where is she at?

(33:07) It’s just super clear. (33:08) And so my next favorite thing to talk about is this world of change we are in. (33:16) It is a really tough times.

(33:20) We see organizations changing faster than ever. (33:22) They’re downsizing, they’re buying other companies. (33:26) And leaders are expected to stabilize all of that in walks, AI technology, politics, everything that’s going on, inflation.

(33:37) How and what do they need most in these moments?

Landon

(33:42) Yeah, that’s a good one. (33:43) I think, you know, as much as we’ve talked about from being a coach, that you got to create a safe space, that you can be a vehicle for them, because it is lonely at the top. (33:56) That is when a leader does need to provide some stability.

(34:00) Because just as your point is, as a parent, would you become dysregulated in front of your child? (34:05) What’s going to happen? (34:06) Now, our employees are not our children.

(34:08) But when we are leaders, and we kind of lose our minds, and we feel unstable, and we can’t keep it together, that does cascade to our teams. (34:17) We cannot help but give them angst and anxiety, because we are feeling it. (34:21) So this is where it’s like, you got to find your game face.

(34:25) It’s not it’s, you know, a facade sounds so negative, whatever you want to call it, game face, facade, you got to put on something where you can emotionally keep it together, go to your head. (34:35) Some people can’t get out of their hearts when they’re feeling it. (34:37) You got to go to your head sometimes and say, this is a head moment.

(34:41) My team needs me, I’ve got to be sharp, I got to think clearly. (34:45) You talked earlier about the brain, you know, I call it your lids being flipped, our prefrontal cortex when we’re stressed gets flipped. (34:50) We don’t think clearly.

(34:52) That’s where all of our good thinking comes. (34:53) So try to like take a deep breath if you need to go in the other room, because you’re not ready. (34:58) There’s been a time there was a time in my career where there was a decision with a leadership team that I was going to have to be accountable for, roll out the training, make sure that everybody was aligned and followed through.

(35:10) And I didn’t actually agree with the very principle we were doing. (35:15) So what did I what was my job, I had to say, hey, leader, I just need 24 hours to emotionally kind of get my headspace right, so that I can own this decision like it’s my own. (35:26) Because if you don’t, and if I say things like, well, I wasn’t agreeing with this, but so and so, you’re just unhealthy, you’re not you’re not creating a healthy environment, you’re damaging the culture, your job as a leader is to provide that stability.

(35:38) So I do feel strongly about that. (35:39) I love the question, because I think that’s just a, I see it, even with top executives, they just don’t think that they have to be regulated, stable, you know, and that’s just a tragedy. (35:49) I think the whole company is impacted by that.

Melissa

(35:51) And it’s a finesse, right? (35:52) Like you have loyalty to your employer, you have, you know, loyalty to your people. (35:58) It’s like, you know, leadership might say, hey, Melissa, you know, this is what’s going on, don’t say anything, you know, and how you frame that to your staff, and kind of that, like transparency, trust, feel like, hey, we’re working on some things.

(36:15) This is what I think is going to happen. (36:17) You know, no matter what happens, I have your back, you know, if it’s layoffs, and we’re all getting layoff, I’ll help you, I’ll be a reference, I’ve got your back, like making sure people feel safe and really wrapping your hands around them, whatever the outcome is, that you are there for them, you may not have all the answers today, but you’re going to help them find all the answers. (36:39) And you’re going to do it.

(36:41) And we’re going to do it together. (36:43) It’s a total different answer than, oh, my God, I don’t know, everybody’s getting laid off. (36:47) And then people go home and kind of make assumptions of what’s happening without having all the information.

(36:54) And so, you know, that leads me to wanting to talk more about the inner work. (36:59) I know some leaders who completely avoid that inner work entirely, and they focus on strategy, we’re executing, we’re performing, we’re driving revenue, what do you see happen when you kind of skip, you know, that inner work and the inner layer?

Landon

(37:20) And just so I’m clear, when you say inner work, you mean the inner work of a person or the inner work of the company’s help?

Melissa

(37:26) Well, both really, I think the inner work of being a good leader and the inner work of just kind of forcing, you know, performance, performance, performance.

Landon

(37:36) Yeah, I so I’m a big Patrick Linceoni fan. (37:40) And one of the he talks about four disciplines of a healthy organization. (37:45) And he says the first discipline is to create a cohesive, healthy leadership team.

(37:50) And I think that is where it starts. (37:52) I’m not saying that the leadership team is everything, because we what could we do without our people, but it sets the tone, it sets the health internally. (38:01) And then if you’re a member of that team, have you resolved enough of your inner work, right, your your brokenness, to be able to have composure to be professional, to be trustworthy, to have emotional intelligence, because if you don’t, what what manifests usually when there’s a stress.

(38:17) And when there’s stress, sometimes the true colors come out. (38:22) The old saying is, what do you squeeze when you what comes what comes out when you squeeze an orange? (38:28) Orange juice?

(38:28) Yeah, why? (38:30) Because that’s what’s on the inside. (38:32) You don’t get lemonade, you get orange juice.

(38:34) Well, guess what, when we get squeezed, sometimes what’s on the inside comes out. (38:38) And if we haven’t killed that, if we haven’t resolved some things, it happens a lot. (38:42) And I would just say to healthcare leaders out there, that, you know, especially behavioral healthcare, where you’re trying to heal people through your work.

(38:50) There’s an old saying that we’ve said for many years in my company that aces attract aces, aces stands for AC adverse childhood experiences. (38:58) So when you’re trying to heal adverse childhood experiences, who’s drawn to that work? (39:03) People with adverse childhood experiences.

(39:06) So the danger is they haven’t always resolved it. (39:08) And so they’re going, they’re trying to resolve them by healing it and others, and it actually is kind of a train wreck. (39:13) So they have to do their inner work first, before they can heal somebody else, you don’t heal it through the process of helping somebody, it actually can can help, but it doesn’t heal you.

(39:24) You have to do that on your own, because you’re going to be a broken person trying to help another broken person. (39:29) So there’s a lot we could unpack there. (39:31) But I just feel like especially in behavioral healthcare, you’ve got to do your emotional work.

(39:36) Because you’re proud people, you’re trying to help that. (39:38) But but I think organizational inner work is like it starts with a leadership team, and then it cascades to every single leader in the organization.

Melissa

(39:47) And what does a strong leadership team actually look like today?

Landon

(39:52) Yeah, I love that. (39:53) I, you know, speaking to Lindsay, he talks about the five dysfunctions of a team, which has been around for 30 years, you got to, you know, and he calls it in a negative term dysfunctions, because you have to look out for those things. (40:04) Is there is there a lack of trust?

(40:06) Is there a lack of conflict? (40:07) Is there a lack of commitment? (40:09) Is there a lack of accountability?

(40:10) And finally, is there is a lack or inattention to results, you have to look out for those things, because you want the opposite. (40:16) The other underrated thing that I see with when it comes to leadership health is they’re not united. (40:23) I call the term team one.

(40:26) So just as again, going back to our same metaphors as parents with the child, you would never say, I don’t agree with this child. (40:32) But mom says we got to do this. (40:34) So here you go.

(40:35) Like that’s super unsettling for the child, the child needs to know you’re on the same page. (40:39) Again, I know our employees aren’t kids. (40:40) But it’s the same principle, you leave meetings, committed and owning decisions, even if you personally disagree.

(40:50) And I am stunned how that does not happen. (40:53) In many situations, they’ll go to their team. (40:56) And they’ll say, Well, I don’t agree with this.

(40:58) But you know, I gotta do this. (40:59) So here you guys go. (41:00) And they’re literally undermining their own authority and their own lack of cohesion with their team to where the decision was started.

(41:07) And they’re really dysregulated in their own teammates, like, Oh, wow, you guys aren’t healthy. (41:11) This is so I call it no daylight, no daylight between you and your teammates, your leadership team. (41:17) No daylight, you close that you work on that together, you do that behind closed doors, because you’re, it feels like an ocean to your team.

(41:24) When there’s daylight between you, you got to be super tight on all those things, even if there’s conflict and disagreement, which there regularly is. (41:31) Yeah, so those are just some but

Melissa

(41:33) no, and I agree, I think you’ve got to be aligned and understanding, you know, I, (41:40) we mentioned a little bit about values, you know, I’ve, I always am interested on company values, (41:45) because if the senior leadership team are not, you know, all in on those values, (41:52) whether it be transparency, or trust, or integrity, or whatever the values are, (41:57) it’s hard for people to come together on that. (42:00) And so the leadership team really has to be aligned on, you know, what our values are, you know, are, you know, are we on a team communicating with each other and being transparent.

(42:12) And I find that, you know, it’s, it’s really, really, it starts at the top.

Landon

(42:18) It does. (42:18) It does. (42:19) And if you’re expecting employees to live behavior that you’re not willing to model and live yourself, you’re never going to have it.

(42:27) It’s what I would call a backfire effect, don’t even have core values, if you’re not going to live them as a leadership team, because all you’re doing is inviting, you know, dissonance and content, because it’s like, this doesn’t make any sense, our leaders don’t even live these values.

Melissa

(42:41) 100%. (42:42) I feel like I learned that, you know, so young as a kid, I even see it in my own children. (42:47) I’m like, don’t do this thing.

(42:49) Mommy says no. (42:51) And then they catch me doing this thing. (42:53) They’re like, well, you can do it.

(42:54) Why can’t I? (42:56) And so it’s like this dialogue that you got to kind of lead by example. (43:01) And so thank you so much for we’ve covered a lot today, Landon.

(43:06) Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, time and interesting background with our listeners. (43:14) And so for leaders who want to perform without burning themselves out or their teams, we’ll link Landon’s work in the show notes and make sure to follow us on YouTube or wherever you podcast and that’s the Executive Connect podcast.