In this episode of Executive Connect, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Deevo Tindall, a strategic ideas architect who helps founders, executives, and creators turn fragmented ideas into clear strategies, compelling messages, and ventures people can understand.

Deevo explains why business strategy often begins much deeper than tactics. Past experiences, unconscious beliefs, fear, comfort, and old identities can quietly influence which opportunities leaders pursue and which ones they avoid. He shares how identity work can help people recognize those invisible constraints before building the next version of their career, company, or personal brand.

The conversation also covers messaging, positioning, intuition, self-awareness, feedback, and why trying to communicate everything you can do often leaves buyers confused. Deevo explains how founders can identify their strengths, clarify who they want to serve, and build around work that creates energy rather than constantly draining it.

For leaders considering a major reinvention, the message is practical: understand yourself first, build the foundation, and then move.

 

Chapters:

(0:18) Why powerful ideas never take shape

(1:10) What identity architecture actually means

(2:21) How unconscious beliefs shape your decisions

(3:00) Re-engineering the identity you have outgrown

(4:59) The invisible constraints behind stalled growth

(7:14) When endless possibilities prevent execution

(8:06) Building around strengths that energize you

(10:41) Turning possibility into an executable blueprint

(13:19) Why messaging matters from the beginning

(13:33) How unclear positioning confuses potential buyers

(16:39) Understanding the beliefs behind repeated mistakes

(18:57) Why people stop trusting their own voice

(21:25) The role of self-awareness in reinvention

(23:27) Why taking care of yourself improves leadership

(25:03) Making unconscious patterns visible

(26:32) Becoming more of your authentic self

(28:11) Building from your own strengths and identity

(29:36) What great founders and leaders have in common

(32:05) Why clearly articulated ideas create momentum

(33:11) What changes when the blueprint finally clicks

(35:31) Why strong leaders remain open to feedback

(36:39) Turning feedback into better decisions

(40:24) Surrounding yourself with people who challenge you

(41:21) What to consider before leaving corporate life

(43:53) The question that can clarify your next move

Deevo

(0:00) I think they’ve lost the ability to listen to their voice. (0:03) They don’t trust it. (0:05) I think that’s the element.

(0:06) So all of that starts with knowing yourself. (0:10) Knowing who you are is the beginning of all wisdom. (0:12) I didn’t say that Aristotle did.

(0:14) If you could do one thing for the rest of your life and not get paid, what would it be?

Melissa

(0:18) Some of the most powerful ideas in the business never actually fail. (0:23) They simply never take shape. (0:25) A founder has a vision, the intuition is there, the opportunity feels real, but somewhere between inspiration and execution, the ideas get stuck.

(0:35) Not because it’s bad, not because it’s not organized, but because it doesn’t have structure. (0:42) Today’s guest specializes in helping founders bridge that gap. (0:47) Devo Tindall is a strategic ideas architect who helps entrepreneurs, executives, and creators transform fragmented ideas into clear strategies, compelling narratives, and ventures that can actually move the needle in the world.

(1:04) Welcome to the show, Devo.

Deevo

(1:07) Thank you for having me, Melissa. (1:08) It’s good to be here.

Melissa

(1:10) Now, your work is described as identity architecture. (1:15) Okay, that sounds interesting and a phrase that I have not heard before outside of cybersecurity, but I know we’re not talking about cybersecurity here. (1:24) Tell me what that actually means in your lens.

Deevo

(1:28) It’s an interesting lexicon. (1:30) I came about it after many iterations trying to figure out how do I create something that still stands alone, doesn’t undo the justice of the work behind it, but still allow people to have some curiosity around it. (1:41) Really, at the end of the day, I’m just about to be 50 and I’ve lived 50 years on this planet.

(1:48) In those 50 years, I have learned experiences. (1:51) I have parenting models that were shown to me from zero to seven. (1:54) I have peers and teachers and bosses and all these different things that have ultimately shaped the man that I am today.

(2:01) How I believe the world to be, my philosophies, my decision-making context, my point of view, my perspective, all these different things, whether I have rose-colored glasses or not, how I receive information, how people receive me. (2:13) All of those, over time, they just stack on top of each other like layers. (2:17) What happens is they become unconscious levers in our life.

(2:21) They literally drive how we show up in the world. (2:23) They drive what jobs we take. (2:25) They drive what jobs we don’t take.

(2:27) They enable us or disable us for opportunities because of fear or scarcity or imposter syndrome or whatever labels you want to give it. (2:35) If we don’t spend the time to unpack the source code first, where those layers, where that narrative was formed, they unconsciously just drive how we show up in the world. (2:47) Once we can give them meaning, once we can understand where they came from, once we can understand the trauma behind them if there’s trauma, once we can understand the source code behind it, then we can see where the gaps are from where we are to where we ultimately want to be.

(3:00) Once we have meaning and we can give things meaning, then we can start to architect what that new identity should look like. (3:06) Maybe you want to become a doctor in your next phase of your life. (3:09) Maybe you want to get out of the corporate world and you want to start a personal brand speaking, but you’re terrified of getting on stages.

(3:15) My job is to help you re-engineer whatever the current identity you’re holding right now, that position about yourself, so that you’re better equipped to step into this new phase of your life. (3:25) In order to do that, optimally, you have to first unpack all of the bullshit that got you to where you are right now. (3:32) Is that a good way to synthesize that?

Melissa

(3:34) I love it. (3:35) I think a lot of us and myself included, we’re a lot of things. (3:40) I laugh with a lot of my friends who have found their one career and they’re an engineer or they’re a marketer or they’re a doctor.

(3:48) They’re a one thing. (3:51) To your point, they’re struggling to make that pivot because they’ve always seen themselves either as a doctor or whatever their profession is. (4:02) In my lens, I’ve always seen myself, Devo, as a Swiss army knife.

(4:07) I’m all these things with a lot of different interests, but to your point, I think a lot of people still struggle to articulate what they’re building either because they don’t see a way to the pivot or they have so many different pieces, it’s hard to put that puzzle together. (4:33) When you’re working with these smart people, do you think lack of clarity is one of the biggest hidden barriers for their growth or is it something completely different? (4:45) Ready to lead smarter and invest wiser?

(4:48) On the Executive Connect podcast, we unpack executive strategies for wealth and influence. (4:55) Hit the subscribe button now. (4:58) Don’t just watch, act.

Deevo

(4:59) I think clarity is one piece of the puzzle. (5:01) I think there’s a lot of invisible constraints that hold people back that they just don’t know what those are yet because they’ve never taken the time to actually explore what’s holding them back. (5:09) I had a call with a client this morning who was terrified of, he’s building a personal brand and he has a really audacious venture that he’s building something really needed in the marketplace and I can’t go into too many details on that, but he’s terrified of asking for money.

(5:23) He’s terrified of getting on stage and sharing the story. (5:26) We started to unpack that and we have been unpacking it for the last few sessions. (5:31) And it’s interesting because I’m not a therapist, but although I do call my product brand therapy, I’m not a clinician, so let’s just keep that out in the open.

(5:38) That may or may not be in your best interest to know that, but having gone through a lot of clinical therapy, I can say that there is an advantage and a disadvantage to that, but I speak no more on that. (5:49) Anyhow, in sort of unpacking through my process his identity, which is the first piece that we work on, we really started to uncover that as a child, he was basically squelched by his father to be in public, to be loud, to not ask too many questions, that his point of view was retarded, all these different things that his dad had done to him as a child and he’s still holding on to that today. (6:13) And I started to unpack, what is your relationship with your father?

(6:16) And he’s like, I have no relationship with my father. (6:18) Every time I’m around him, I feel invisible. (6:20) I feel unseen.

(6:21) I feel judged. (6:22) I feel impotent around my father was the words that he used. (6:25) And so we started to unpack that.

(6:27) And when we got to the source code, he’s literally in tears sort of unveiling this cover about all the things that happened to him as a kid and how he was treated by his father and basically made invisible. (6:38) So we hold on to these invisible constraints that get in the way of our progress. (6:43) And so clarity is one of the pieces, but before we can even get to clarity, we have to be able to unpack the parts that are confusing in the first place, those invisible constraints.

(6:52) And so we go to the human level. (6:55) We want to get to the source code, like how did you get to this position in the first place? (7:00) And then once we can break that down, we re-engineer it.

(7:03) Clarity is one of the outputs that is the by-product of the work we do, but it’s also alignment, it’s leadership, it’s culture, it’s sort of understanding. (7:11) It’s a lot of different variables that go into it.

Melissa

(7:14) Yeah, yeah, I agree. (7:16) And I think, you know, I also see people get kind of trapped in that fear as they’re trying to move through their whatever they’re like, kind of to your point, speaking, right? (7:28) That could be a fear or they get kind of trapped in this endless ideation of what things are supposed to be.

(7:37) And so, you know, there’s a big difference from my perspective of psychology versus strategy. (7:45) And, you know, I’d love to get your perspective about how can having, you know, too many possibilities actually prevent people from moving forward when we’re kind of stuck in this endless, a loop of ideation.

Deevo

(8:00) So the question is, how does it limit us to have too many possibilities or too many opportunities?

Melissa

(8:05) Yes.

Deevo

(8:06) I mean, I don’t know if there’s such a thing as too many opportunities, but I do think there’s such a thing as having information overload and not being able to sort of see what’s right in front of you and build from that. (8:15) I think a lot of times we’re sort of building on projected ideals of something rather than focusing on what our strengths are and the path of least resistance. (8:23) So yeah, I would rather see, I mean, again, you’re a talented individual just talking with you and seeing, you know, listening to your resume of things that you’re working on.

(8:32) You could probably generally take on any number of tasks over the next five years and excel at them. (8:37) But what’s more important I would suggest you do is find the task that you can excel at, but also that lights you up at the end of the day, because those are the, that’s the secret sauce is building something that fills you up and simultaneously fills up others. (8:51) And I do believe that like the whole point, and we were talking a little bit lightly, the whole point of our being here on this planet in this time is to build a community around us where we can lift each other up.

(9:02) And the best way to do that is to find something that lights us up, that gives us energy, that energizes us, but simultaneously solves the problem for somebody else. (9:11) And then if you can make money on it, you found the secret sauce to living a great life.

Melissa

(9:15) Yeah, I agree with that. (9:17) I think, you know, one of the things that you mentioned that I find really interesting is a lot of times when people are building this, you know, strategic blueprint for their life, let’s call it, you know, the who, what, where, how, why all the things you need to kind of get from what you want for your life to your point, the joy, I completely outsource the things I hate doing. (9:40) It zaps my energy.

(9:42) I focus on the things I enjoy doing, like talking to you on this podcast gives me energy. (9:48) And I have other peers of mine that it would absolutely zap their energy. (9:52) For me, I actually gain energy by doing this.

(9:55) So I stay in my joy. (9:56) I stay in the things that make me happy. (9:58) And so, but it’s really reinventing.

(10:00) And I talked a little bit about this in my book, Renaissance Redefining Success for Modern Mavericks is really defining what success looks like to you. (10:10) Like, you know, for me, younger success was titles, money, you know, my degrees, my academics, scholastic, those kinds of things. (10:19) And the older I get, how I look at success is a lot about my time, my freedom.

(10:26) It’s completely different than how it was later. (10:29) And so when you’re working with someone, how do you help them move from possibility to putting together a blueprint that they can actually execute to live their very best life?

Deevo

(10:41) Well, it’s a very structured process that starts with the identity work. (10:45) So we go into the human level first, and understanding what are the gaps that are preventing them, like with those invisible constraints. (10:52) And then it’s a very strategic process that sort of meets people where they are, unpacks all of those things, and then we start to clarify what those look like.

(10:59) So it can be a variety of things. (11:02) It’s unpacking your trauma, and then building your identity around that. (11:05) Once we have that done, we want to talk about what’s your zone of genius?

(11:08) You know, what are the things that light you up then today? (11:10) What are the things that you’re currently doing? (11:11) What are the things that you could be doing?

(11:13) And then once we have sort of like a foundation, if you will, you call it a blueprint. (11:16) Once we have that foundation built, then we can start to fill in the gaps and hone in on what the messaging looks like. (11:23) What’s the strategy look like?

(11:24) Who are the people that you actually want to serve? (11:26) Because as you know better than anyone, if you’re working with people, like if you have somebody on your show, let’s take your podcast show. (11:32) How many times have you shown up on a, and just be honest, how many times have you had guests where you’re like, okay, that was a snoozer.

(11:38) I could have found somebody else, right? (11:40) But then you have somebody else where the conversation just lit you up, and you’re like, holy fuck, I could talk to this dude or this lady for like two hours and not be bored by it, right? (11:48) So it’s really important as you start to build this blueprint, this foundation, that you’re also incorporating who are the people that you want to serve that fill you up, because it’s a two-way street.

(11:59) Just because they’re paying you money to do something, you’re also hiring them so that you can stay fulfilled because the more fulfilled you are, the more your resource bank is filled up, the more you can offer back, right? (12:08) So it’s a variety of things. (12:10) It’s identity, it’s alignment, it’s clarity, it’s building a foundation, it’s understanding your avatar, it’s understanding the work that you do, it’s understanding the impact that you make, it’s positioning you properly so that the right people are receiving you in the right context, the right order.

(12:21) There’s just a bunch of different variables that go into it, but it’s all sort of a structured process that I take everyone through to get to that point from A to B.

Melissa

(12:28) Yeah, and I love that. (12:30) I think there’s so much in that. (12:31) It’s funny, I laugh.

(12:33) I never actually, funny enough, believed in having my own profile, my own identity. (12:40) Who am I online? (12:42) Funny, when I started getting out there, Devo, and talking about myself and my personal life and what interests me, my social profiles blew up.

(12:53) I think so many people didn’t even realize I had kids and I’m like, I didn’t tell you I have children? (12:58) Oh my God, what have I been talking about with you? (13:01) And so I think, for me, I’ve made the mistake on more than one occasion, not getting the messaging right upfront.

(13:10) When I first started this podcast, I was a lot of different things. (13:14) I’m like, because I have a lot of different interests, right? (13:17) And so I was this and this and this.

(13:19) And so talk to me a little bit about what role does messaging play early on when you’re working with clients to uncover this kind of core thesis behind their idea?

Deevo

(13:33) It’s critical. (13:35) Everything else gets lost in translation. (13:36) It is the message that matters the most, because that’s what’s going to be received by the person who you want it to be received by.

(13:44) And in turn, positioning you with the most amount of capacity and leverage to help them, and they in turn need your service. (13:51) So messaging is everything. (13:52) And that’s great that you’re good at a lot of different things.

(13:54) But if you’re talking about all these different things all the different times, your consumer, your buyer, your audience is going to be confused on actually what it is and who you serve. (14:06) And they’re not going to tune in. (14:08) But if you’re honing in on your messaging, and you’re absolutely certain about your avatar, the people that you want to work with and serve and all those things, then you understand your positioning, you can put yourself in the right marketplaces so the right types of buyers can engage with you.

(14:22) But if nobody knows what you’re doing, they’re just going to say, hey, she’s a Swiss Army knife. (14:26) I’m not really sure. (14:27) Do I use a screwdriver?

(14:28) Do I need a blade today? (14:29) Do I need a little pocket knife? (14:30) Like, what do I need, right?

(14:31) No, like your precision. (14:33) So your one tool is going in and extracting information from people, synthesizing it for them, and telling them how to get the fuck out of their own way so they can build that. (14:42) That’s a very specific tool.

(14:44) And when people hear that, they’re like, that’s the fucking tool I need. (14:47) That right there is what I need. (14:48) I don’t need a Swiss Army knife.

(14:49) I don’t need all those blades. (14:50) I only really need that one little thing that’s going to help me get from this wedge to that wedge and live a prosperous life. (14:57) So your messaging does that, right?

(14:59) It tells people the emotional cues that build that heartstring between you and they so when they hear it, they’re like, damn, that really hit. (15:08) Like, holy shit, I’m a mother also. (15:10) I’m struggling with these sorts of things.

(15:12) Jesus Christ, Melissa has the same thing. (15:14) She’s kind of a big deal. (15:15) If Melissa can do it, I can do it.

(15:16) I want to talk to Melissa, right? (15:18) So messaging enables you to connect with the person who needs your message most. (15:23) You’re not trying to connect with everybody else.

(15:24) Not everybody else is your buyer. (15:26) Only a small percentage of people are your actual true buyers. (15:29) That’s just like, look at your life.

(15:31) Like, think of the people you have consciously surrounded yourself with, right? (15:35) There was a message that you unconsciously or consciously delivered to them, whether it was your husband or your romantic partners or your lovers or your best friends or whatever it is. (15:44) There were people that you were engaging with on an emotional capacity.

(15:48) You didn’t go in there and be like talking about TPX reports. (15:50) You went in there and talked about the things that really mattered to you and somebody heard that message in the process of hearing this message and this exchanging going back and forth. (15:59) You form these unions.

(16:01) Your buyers are the same way, man. (16:03) We don’t need to overcomplicate it. (16:04) We need to talk about the things that we do and do well and matter to us.

(16:08) And if we have a solution for those things, someone else is going to buy it from us. (16:12) And that’s what messaging does for you.

Melissa

(16:14) Yeah. (16:15) Amen. (16:16) And yeah, those TPS reports, they’re pretty bad.

(16:19) I’ve worked for some of those people for the record. (16:22) I’ve worked with leaders that were like that. (16:25) I’m like, oh God, here he comes for his TPS report.

(16:29) Oh gosh, that made me bring back old memories.

Deevo

(16:32) Same. (16:33) I did that for 15 years.

Melissa

(16:35) Yeah, I was similar.

Deevo

(16:36) Literally almost wiped out my soul.

Melissa

(16:39) I love that. (16:41) It’s funny. (16:42) I’m thinking back to what you were saying about your client.

(16:45) I also believe it’s so important to understand our mind and our past and our history when we’re shaping our ideas. (16:55) I realized in my life a couple of times I was making the same mistake, the same mistake. (17:01) It was dressed different.

(17:03) It looked different on the outside, but it was still a fruit. (17:07) And so I think to what you were talking about, understanding the mind and unpacking your belief systems. (17:19) A lot of times people are like, you’re just so courageous.

(17:22) And I’m like, what does that mean exactly? (17:25) And so I’ve unpacked it with people about a lot in my life about, I just do things that make me uncomfortable and I don’t stay a lot in the comfortable. (17:40) And I challenge myself quite regularly.

(17:44) Even when I wasn’t a morning person, I’m like, oh my God, 5 a.m. Who wakes up to lift weights at 5 a.m.? Who is crazy enough to do that? (17:52) I am part of the 5 a.m. club now, right? (17:55) I am exercising at 5 a.m. I was up at 3.30 this morning and I left, but it’s because I’m challenging myself. (18:03) And so I want to, why do people struggle so much to trust their own instinct? (18:11) I see this happening over and over and over. (18:15) Friends of mine that I’ve been wanting to start businesses and I come in and say this, this, this, and they’re like, okay, I can do it now.

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Deevo

(18:57) Well, I don’t think they are listening to their voice. (18:59) I think they’re listening to a variety of other things. (19:01) I think they’ve lost the ability to listen to their voice.

(19:05) They don’t trust it. (19:06) I think that’s the element you talked a little bit earlier about strategy versus psychology and strategy is necessary. (19:13) You need to have a strategy to build a business.

(19:15) I’m not saying you shouldn’t, but strategy asks more linear binary questions, if you will, for example, like what should we do? (19:25) Whereas if you were to unpack that same question psychologically, we would rather ask, why haven’t we done it already? (19:32) So to your question, why do people struggle to sort of build the things they want?

(19:36) I really think there’s a lot of variables that go into that. (19:39) We get comfortable, right? (19:40) We have these neuroplasticity things that are firing in our brains that want to keep us safe.

(19:47) They want that big juicy paycheck that you get every month that’s deposited in your bank account. (19:51) They want the fact that you have this home that you come home to every single night and you drive in your driveway and you open up the garage and you walk over to the second auxiliary fridge and you pick up a beer and you go in your house and the dog’s up and greets you. (20:03) Maybe your partner’s over there and then you get to sit down and have a dinner and then you sit down and watch TV and then you get to fucking wake up every morning, rinse and repeat.

(20:09) And your body’s like, that feels really safe. (20:11) Stay here. (20:11) Get on the treadmill, right?

(20:13) And so anything that deviates from that, hey, go outside, dance in the rain, go for a road trip today, take a trip to a country you’ve never been. (20:20) Holy shit. (20:21) Your body’s like, no, that is not safe, bro.

(20:25) Stay in your lane. (20:27) And so what happens is that we just keep doing that over and over and over and over and over and over. (20:32) This neuroplasticity starts to build up in our bodies.

(20:35) It says, this is the way we do things. (20:37) This is the way we’ve always done things. (20:38) We are not going to deviate from that because if you deviate from that, that is fearful.

(20:42) That is scary. (20:43) That’s terrifying. (20:44) I have no idea how to auto-regulate you, right?

(20:47) And so by and large, it’s because we’re terrified of the unknown. (20:52) We’re terrified and we have good reason to be terrified of the unknown. (20:55) Our bodies are trained for survival.

(20:57) They’re not trained for risk-taking. (20:59) They’re not trained for doing those things because it’s like an autonomic reflex built into us to keep us survival. (21:05) It’s the procreation of the genes.

(21:07) Keep the model going, right? (21:08) We’re not designed to jump off of cliffs in the middle of the ocean somewhere or take trips to countries we’ve never been to. (21:14) That’s terrifying.

(21:15) And so we just find a comfortably numb pathway that keeps us in that pattern loop of self-repetition. (21:22) And at some point we die and we just move on to the next life.

Melissa

(21:25) Yeah. (21:26) And I think to your point, self-awareness is so here. (21:32) When we’re innovating anything, I think the one thing, I talk a lot about this when I speak is at a certain age, IQ does not increase.

(21:41) It’s where it is. (21:42) Your emotional intelligence and your self-awareness, your self-regulation of your emotions are everything. (21:50) And being able to control those emotions or use those emotions, like I, for one, use my emotions, whether good or bad, to run my day, to work through my day.

(22:03) So when I’m feeling whatever the emotion is, I engage and listen to myself. (22:12) Why am I feeling this? (22:13) This is really weird.

(22:14) And it’s really self-regulation, self-awareness. (22:18) And I think a lot of times when we talk about identity, to your earlier point, I would say sometimes we don’t even realize we’re living this life that we didn’t really want to live because we don’t have any self-awareness. (22:33) And we see this with people that go from a good weight to a big weight, or we see people that go from a happy life to a destructive life.

(22:44) And I think when we are aligned, I don’t know about you, I’d be curious to get your perspective here. (22:50) I start my day with me. (22:52) Every single day I start my day with me.

(22:55) And I’ve had many people say, well, that’s selfish. (22:58) And you’re a mom and you got to take care of your family. (23:01) And I always say back, I’m like, how can I take care of everybody else if I can’t take care of me?

(23:06) Everything starts with us. (23:08) We have to get us emotionally in the right place. (23:13) If we don’t love us, how are we going to love another person?

(23:17) And so I think I’d love to get your perspective about the deeper psychological layers of entrepreneurship.

Deevo

(23:27) I fully agree with what you just said, just to kind of go backwards for a minute. (23:30) Self-regulation, self-love, self-nurturing, self-care, those are the single most critical aspect of your life. (23:38) Because if you are a fuller woman, if you are taken care of, if you are a sated person, if you are working on your personal development, if you are working on your personal health and your fitness and your diet and all those things, you are going to be more equipped and capable to help those around you.

(23:52) Sort of like I said earlier, I see everything as a resource bank, just like a bank account. (23:57) How full is your resource bank account? (23:59) Your resource bank account is going to be filled up by things like eating well, exercising, getting sunlight, proper nutrition, surrounding yourself with good people, getting away from bullshit and technology 24-7 in your face, doing things that actually add value to your life.

(24:13) That adds to the components of your resource bank, right? (24:17) So if you have a child, I have two teenage daughters that I’ve raised for the last 20 years. (24:21) If I was an unfilled man, and there were many years ago when I was an unfilled man, I was a poorer father.

(24:28) I was impatient with my children. (24:30) I was constantly scrutinizing things, whatever. (24:33) You can call it what it was, and it wasn’t until I started working on me, my personal side of my life, my fitness of my life, my diet of my life, all those things, that I started to become a better man and a better human and better relationship.

(24:45) So it’s critical, that piece. (24:47) Anyone who says that we’re wrong, I’ll argue with them until I die on this. (24:51) In terms of the self-regulation and just the psychology around it and self-awareness, I don’t know if you’re familiar with, he’s one of my favorite psychologists, Carl Jung.

Melissa

(25:02) I’ve heard of him, yep, yep, yep.

Deevo

(25:03) So he has, it’s a tattoo I have, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. (25:12) And it sort of centers around this idea of self-awareness and identity work. (25:16) Until you make this, we talked in the segment before this, that autatomic treadmill that we’re on, we’re just sort of unconsciously with our blinders on, time to make the doughnuts, time to make the doughnuts, walking down the treadmill of life like ducks, until we, that’s an unconscious behavior.

(25:32) We’re literally not doing anything else until we can make, have awareness that we’re living those lives that we’re just unconsciously living, we’re going to just stay on that. (25:42) So all of that starts with knowing yourself, knowing who you are is the beginning of all wisdom. (25:48) I didn’t say that, Aristotle did, and I think he’s a little bit smarter than you and me.

(25:52) But you have to understand who you are as a human before you can build anything from that, because otherwise, you talked about loop patterns and loops, you’re going to be putting yourself on these trauma loops, and you’re just going to be repeating the same mistakes over and over, because you’ve never taken the time to unpack where those mistakes came from. (26:15) And that all starts with self-awareness. (26:17) Understanding who you are and how you show up in the world is the single biggest gift you can give yourself before anything else, before any MBA, before any bank account, do some work on who you are as a human so that you can understand how you show up in the world, and then build from that.

Melissa

(26:32) And I love that you mentioned that. (26:34) So I recently wrote an article about this. (26:36) Earlier in my career, I was trying to be so much what others wanted me to be.

(26:41) I was working as a young engineer, as a young blonde engineer. (26:47) And I thought if I looked less that a certain way, and I acted more this way, I’d be more received, better appreciated. (26:55) And what I learned in 10 years of working as a civil engineer is it’s so much easier to be your authentic self, and the right people stay, and the wrong people go.

(27:09) So I was playing an act for everyone else. (27:14) I was being the Melissa that everybody else wanted me to be so they could feel safe, instead of just being the Melissa that I am. (27:23) And it’s funny, and I joke a lot with my friends, because I am quirky.

(27:27) I’m always comfortable making fun of myself. (27:31) Life’s got to be fun. (27:33) But when I was younger, I was never any of that.

(27:36) I was always organized and professional, and I didn’t talk about personal stuff. (27:42) It was business, sun up to sun down. (27:45) And I looked back at that Melissa, and I think, man, it’s so much easier just being my authentic self than it is to be someone else.

(27:56) And I know you spent so many years hosting the branding laboratory and speaking with founders, creators, executives, leaders. (28:05) What patterns have you noticed emerging from all of these conversations?

Deevo

(28:11) Great question. (28:13) I want to unpack something you said for a second before I answer that question. (28:17) Rather than trying to be somebody else, I always tell people, how can you take what you are right now and just improve that some way, shape, or form?

(28:26) What is it that you see in other people that makes you want to be that person? (28:31) And how can you tap into your own zone of genius, your own creativity, your own intuition, and build something upon that? (28:39) Because somewhere deep inside, and that’s what identity work does, it’s not just calling out your daddy issues or your trauma loops.

(28:46) Identity work is helping you unpack the badass motherfucker that you actually are, right? (28:51) And most people have not embraced that side of themselves. (28:54) They’re terrified of that side of themselves because it’s going to ask them to put themselves out there for other people to see it and potentially judge it, right?

(29:02) And so people are terrified of that, right? (29:04) Like, what if they don’t like me? (29:05) What if they say bad things about me on social media?

(29:08) Wah, wah, wah. (29:09) What if they don’t? (29:10) What if they see what you’re offering and be like, holy shit, that changes my life.

(29:15) And so rather than trying to go in authentically and recreate yourself in someone else’s persona or someone else’s social media or someone else’s look, like, dude, take what you have and build from there. (29:25) Take what you have and unpack it. (29:27) What are the things I do really fucking good and how do I make that better?

(29:31) So I just really liked that you said that. (29:33) I thought it was worth just sort of unpacking a bit. (29:36) What have I seen trends with people in my podcast, leaders, founders, executives?

(29:40) I think that by and large, and I do a really good job with understanding who my ICP is, my ideal client profile. (29:47) So we bring on people like you. (29:49) We’re very good at targeting the type of people we want on the show.

(29:51) So it’s an unfair question, but what I would say, flip it around, I would say that by and large, the people that are on my show and most of the people that I try to surround myself with now have understood a lot of the things we’ve talked about so far. (30:06) Self-awareness, regulating (30:08) yourself, surrounding yourselves with better people, putting yourselves in rooms where you’re (30:13) not the smartest one there, taking time to develop yourself mentally, emotionally, physically, (30:19) spending time in relationships and nurturing those things, understanding what leadership means (30:24) to you and how do you show up in the world so that you can be a better version of yourself in (30:27) every moment. (30:28) I think the common theme is that most of the people that I try to get on these calls are people who have done the thing. (30:36) They’ve built the thing.

(30:38) They’ve fucked up the thing. (30:39) They failed at the thing, but they were willing to step into the pithiness of their own error and try to re-engineer and build something from it and have the self-awareness and most importantly the humility to see there might be a better way to do this. (30:55) I might have to surround myself, ask questions, be curious so that I can do the thing better the next time around.

(31:01) And so I think that’s probably one of the biggest things that I’ve seen is that great leaders, great humans, and leaders come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. (31:08) They’re not just the loudest dude on the platform. (31:11) The people who are building real things that have real value and sustainability have embraced the model of curiosity, have embraced the model of humility, have embraced the model of community, have embraced the bottle of realizing they don’t necessarily have all the answers, but they’re willing to put in the work to figure it out.

(31:29) And I think finally the last platitude that I think probably see more than anything else is something you said earlier in the call which I just applaud greatly is that we’re here to help other people. (31:39) That is the only reason we’re on this planet. (31:42) First and foremost to help ourselves and secondly to bring other people with us on that journey.

(31:47) Some way, shape, or form. (31:48) Be the messenger, be the inspirator, be whatever it is, but I think that our job if we have a gift is to share that gift with other people and most of these people understand that and they’re doing that in all these like platitude of ways. (32:01) So I think yeah, there’s just a lot of different levels to that to that question.

Melissa

(32:05) Yep, I couldn’t agree with you more. (32:07) I work in the gaming industry so I just always say I play my poker hand and as best I can and I outsource in areas that I don’t, I’m not the best in. (32:19) I wanted to talk a little bit about I think there’s something really special that changes when founders can clearly articulate their ideas out in the world.

(32:34) Whether you like Elon Musk or some of these other people that have done tremendous, Jeff Bezos, the list is on and on for these people that have who have done tremendous things. (32:46) I find at least in my experience, they have clearly articulated their ideas with a purpose and attached it to a value that others are receiving from getting their packages dropped to their doorstep or buying a Tesla or whatever else is out there in the world. (33:07) So I love to kind of get your thoughts.

(33:11) Once it clicks for your clients, what changes? (33:14) Once you guys get down through that blueprint, and then I think of the safe clicking open, once it clicks, what changes for founders?

Deevo

(33:27) I mean, their entire world changes, their trajectory changes, the type of people that they’re surrounding, their bank accounts change, their view of themselves change, the people that they start to surround themselves changes. (33:38) I mean, they’re making a ripple in the life, in the ethos of the universe. (33:43) They’re now building something that has sustainability, that has messaging, that has positioning, that has expression, that is now being received by an audience that is somehow or other changing their life.

(33:56) And so at the end of the day, it’s like they’ve figured out what their zone of genius is, we’ve figured out how to package it, we’ve figured out how to position it, we’ve figured out how to express it to the right audience. (34:06) And now we get to sit back and sort of like grow with this community. (34:10) So yeah, I mean, it alters everything once you do that work.

Melissa

(34:14) Yep, I would agree. (34:15) And I think kind of to your earlier point, some of the best leaders I know, none of them have I been able to work for, but they are so humble. (34:27) And they are constantly getting, I’ll never forget, I had a friend of mine who is a very, very successful businessman, he’s a billionaire, he asked me for feedback one time.

(34:38) And I’m like, wait, you want feedback from me, I should be getting feedback from you. (34:43) And I think the other thing they do really well is getting feedback on the data that’s around them. (34:50) So getting, you know, I get feedback from my children as well.

(34:54) Sometimes the best feedback I’ve ever been given came from a random stranger somewhere, or, you know, someone asking me something about my social profile, I didn’t even know was there, or, you know, my kid asked me why I carry a phone around. (35:10) And so be willing to take feedback. (35:13) I think that’s another really great thing I’ve seen good founders be able to do is to not be blindsided by their vision, that they can’t hear another perspective from someone who’s not, you know, around the seat at the table with them.

Deevo

(35:31) Absolutely. (35:33) So you want my feedback? (35:35) Or is that a question?

Melissa

(35:36) No, I yeah, any other kind of thoughts or any other, you know, insights that founders either make, or that you see in good founders. (35:48) This episode is brought to you by Summit Ventures. (35:53) If you’re an accredited investor, Summit gives you access to one of the greatest tax advantage opportunities direct ownership in oil and gas, their projects deliver what they call the triple play cash flow, equity growth and powerful tax benefits.

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Deevo

(36:39) Well, I love what you said about it. (36:41) I mean, feedback is everything is information, like literally everything is information. (36:47) Now what you do with that information is what matters next, right?

(36:50) So I tell this to my daughter all the time. (36:52) I’m like, you have one thing you’re responsible for your choice. (36:57) You cannot control what other people do.

(36:59) You cannot control what other people say. (37:01) You cannot control anything else that’s going on right now. (37:03) You can only control how you choose the next action, the next decision, the next expression.

(37:10) So and then and sort of understanding that sort of changes the game for everything, because then you realize like, she plays soccer in college. (37:16) And you know, she’s has, you know, the typical struggles of a teen young teenage woman in college and playing soccer and managing relationships and boyfriends. (37:24) She’s like, Dad, I have time for nothing.

(37:26) And coach does this coach does that. (37:28) And I was like, you can only control so many of those variables, right? (37:31) And so every good leader understands that you can only control so much and and part of being a good leader, leader is sort of the willingness to understand that you go first, and that you have a responsibility around all of the choices and all the fallout that come thereafter, right?

(37:46) So it’s really important that you’re open to feedback, you’re open to that you’re humble enough to know that there’s probably a lot more that you can do. (37:54) I think some of my best feedback I’ve ever received was a yogi I was playing around with in Charleston, South Carolina many years ago. (38:01) And I just I didn’t like we went grocery shopping to make dinner.

(38:06) And I just really did not like how she treated the checkout clerk. (38:09) And we were walking back to the to her apartment. (38:12) And I was like, I just really don’t.

(38:15) It wasn’t very yogi esque how you just treated that young man. (38:19) He like, you don’t know what his life was going through. (38:21) You don’t like you were very yogi to him.

(38:24) And she said to me and she said, You should you know what, she’s like, I may not be a yogi, but I’m going to give you some advice since you didn’t ask me for advice. (38:31) Never give advice to anybody unsolicited. (38:33) And I was like, can I it’s actually pretty important.

(38:37) Like, we assume we have the answers. (38:39) We assume we know what’s going on. (38:40) So we’re always wanted.

(38:41) And even if we’re like doing it from a place, a place of good heart, like, not everybody wants feedback. (38:47) Not everybody’s open to feedback. (38:48) So it’s our job to sort of read the room and self assess.

(38:52) But, you know, be humble enough to say the feedback she just gave me is actually really good feedback. (38:57) Like, okay, you’re actually right, I probably should not have offered you any of you. (39:00) I don’t have a filter.

(39:01) So I just sort of like, to read it out from time to time. (39:06) I’ve learned to police myself a little bit on that. (39:08) Not everybody wants feedback.

Melissa

(39:11) But I think to your point, I’ve been given that non solicited feedback in my life. (39:17) And, you know, the feedback, I listen, and I sit in it. (39:22) And I’m like, okay, does this person have a interesting perspective or a point?

(39:28) Or is there a lesson to be had here? (39:31) And there’s sometimes where people are projecting their own stuff on me. (39:36) And I don’t take it.

(39:38) And I’ve had people tell me, you know, you’re bad at this, or you’re good at this. (39:42) And I would completely disagree with their saying that I’m bad at this thing. (39:47) And I’m like, I’m so sorry, you feel that way.

(39:49) Why don’t you ask my staff who absolutely love me what a great leader I am, because they think I’m a great leader, which to me, that means I’m a great leader. (39:56) And I’ve had these disputes with people much younger. (40:03) And the older I got, the more I realized, take the information, decide if it’s relative.

(40:11) And if it’s relative, make the changes. (40:13) If it’s not, flick it out of your mind. (40:16) It’s not worth wasting any of your time on pondering if it’s not relative to how you feel about yourself.

Deevo

(40:24) Well, that’s a sign of good leadership. (40:25) You have grown. (40:26) That’s another sign of leadership.

(40:27) You have taken information over time, you’ve evolved, you didn’t say sedentary, you were willing to be curious, what am I doing that I could do a little bit better or more optimal or more efficient. (40:37) So I mean, that’s a sign of leadership and self-awareness right there. (40:40) You have seen that whether you agree with it or not, there might be some value in it.

(40:46) And you’re willing to take that information and disseminate it amongst yourself and ask questions and decide if this really works for me or not. (40:53) Because you know, sometimes we are sometimes we’re blind to our own objectives because we’re sitting in it all day long. (41:01) And so, I mean, that’s why you hire coaches, right?

(41:02) That’s why you surround yourself with quality people. (41:05) You don’t want yes men in your life or yes women in your life. (41:08) You want people who are going to ride or die with you, but also call you on your bullshit.

(41:13) So it’s our job to surround ourselves with people that do that and then be open to the feedback when they give it to us.

Melissa

(41:18) Yeah, so true. (41:19) So, so true. (41:21) Any final thoughts or anything you want to leave with our listeners?

Deevo

(41:27) Give me a topic.

Melissa

(41:29) Oh, I don’t know. (41:31) I think, you know, we’ve talked a lot about clarity, about being curious, about your intuition, you know, maybe something along the lines of, you know, with the feelings that you’re having that something’s coming to emerge, like, what do you do with that? (41:48) You know, maybe it’s something as simple as I’m tired of my corporate job.

(41:52) You know, I like doing this thing, I want to bring it out to the world. (41:55) Like, what would you tell people that are kind of in that limbo between do I stay in my corporate job or do I leave my corporate job?

Deevo

(42:01) Well, I think you stay in your corporate job until you have some clarity on what it is you’re going to do outside of your corporate job, first and foremost, right? (42:08) Especially if you have responsibilities with family and partners and mortgages and all these things that we take on, right? (42:14) First of all, maybe simplify your life so you can have more flexibility.

(42:17) I spent a lot of time over the last 20 years of my life simplifying it so that I don’t have that baggage sitting around, so that I could be more nimble when I want. (42:25) Like, I could pick up tomorrow and move to Costa Rica and I wouldn’t have any issues with doing that. (42:30) So I think, first and foremost, we need to simplify our lives.

(42:33) Honestly, we carry way too much baggage, literally. (42:37) But if you are considering leaving the corporation or whatever it is that you’re enslaved in right now, I would have some clarity on why you want to leave, first and foremost, right? (42:46) Is there a better opportunity within the business itself that would give you more peace of mind?

(42:50) Like, maybe within the organization of the corporation. (42:52) You know, one of the things I see, I do work with businesses, and one of the things I see often is the culture misalignment in where they have people placed for positions, and they just sort of keep them locked in there forever instead of, like, doing, like, I would have constant assessments with my team as individual, because everyone grows at different rates, right? (43:11) Everybody takes on new tasks and evolves differently and grows differently and expands differently, and some people don’t.

(43:17) Like, I would be constantly analyzing my team to see, is this the right position for this individual, or would they be better served somewhere else? (43:25) Like, would this person actually want to work in a different department and have greater impact because they’re fulfilling something within themselves? (43:32) So I would say, you know, do a really rigorous inventory of yourself.

(43:36) Understand why it is you want to leave this position. (43:39) Is there something internally that you can do that would change your paradigm and give you more peace of mind, perhaps? (43:44) There very well be, especially if you work for a large corporation, and if none of that fits your boat, you should start taking an inventory of the things that would really, like, same question I asked earlier.

(43:53) If you could do one thing for the rest of your life and not get paid, what would it be? (43:58) If you can answer, like, what you did answer at the beginning, like, I think I would ask myself that question. (44:04) If there was one thing you could do for the rest of your life and not get paid, what would it be?

(44:09) Mine would be some sort of vehicle around teaching, which is exactly what I’m doing now. (44:14) Teaching, coaching, helping people have expanded awareness, like, those sorts of things, right? (44:19) And you’re very similar to that.

(44:20) You’re a teacher. (44:21) So if you had one task you could do for the rest of your life and not get paid, what would it be? (44:27) Start with that.

(44:28) Now then, how do I take that and monetize that? (44:31) How do I take that and scale that? (44:33) How do I take that and attract the right type of people?

(44:35) So that’s really where I begin. (44:36) And I would not quit your day job until you’ve done some foundation work around that.

Melissa

(44:40) I love it. (44:40) Well said, Devo. (44:41) You remind us that when ideas are clear and aligned with our identity and layered with a structure, nothing is impossible.

(44:50) They become movements, businesses, and realities to our life and leave, ultimately, the world a better place. (44:57) And for anyone who is interested in learning more about entrepreneurship, leadership, branding, and what we talked today with Devo about, we will leave his work in the show notes and the branding laboratory as well. (45:11) And if you enjoyed this conversation, please follow us on YouTube or wherever you podcast on the Executive Connect YouTube channel, where you’ll find conversations with leadership and founders on many different subjects.

(45:25) Thank you so much for being here today.