In this episode of Executive Connect, Melissa Aarskaug sits down with Jackson Mikalic, business development leader at OnRamp, to unpack the modern investment thesis behind Bitcoin and why custody is the quiet backbone that determines whether investors thrive or panic.

Jackson explains how currency debasement, structural inflation, and global liquidity trends have driven serious capital into scarce digital assets. He breaks down why custody risk matters more than price volatility, how hundreds of billions in Bitcoin have been permanently lost, and why exchange storage and self-custody both introduce trade-offs.

For executives, family offices, and long-term investors evaluating digital assets, this episode provides a clear framework for responsible Bitcoin allocation, risk management, and institutional-grade security.

Chapters:

00:00 When Bitcoin becomes serious money
00:44 Introduction to Jackson Mikalic and OnRamp
01:47 The real Bitcoin investment thesis
05:55 Why custody matters more than investors realize
06:43 Permanent loss risk and private keys
08:52 Exchange custody versus self-custody
10:21 When custody becomes a priority
13:18 Authentication risk and social engineering
16:37 Why hundreds of billions have been lost
20:02 Bitcoin ETFs versus direct ownership
23:00 The evolution of custody solutions
24:24 Multi-signature custody explained
28:49 Regulation and institutional clarity
32:29 How custody unlocks broader adoption
34:55 What changes in the next three years
37:24 Final thoughts and how to connect

Jackson

(0:00) I would say as Bitcoin starts to get more meaningful for an investor and it becomes, maybe it’s not a thousand, maybe it’s not 10,000, maybe it’s 50,000, who knows, at some point there’s a number where it’s like, okay, well, I really do not, I cannot afford to lose this. (0:13) I’ve transitioned from thinking about this as just like something to speculate on to something that actually I deeply understand. (0:19) I think education is a big part of this.

(0:21) I would say a part of that is moving from, this is something I may put a few hundred bucks in or a few thousand bucks because I think I’m going to get rich from it, by the way, you know, don’t have that attitude about Bitcoin. (0:31) It’s really going to test your patience. (0:32) It’s very volatile.

Melissa

(0:34) Plenty of people want exposure to Bitcoin, but very few want to lose everything because they clicked the wrong button experience. (0:44) Today’s guest has built a career helping private clients and institutions invest in Bitcoin without the risk and uncertainty that has historically existed, the chaos, the drama, or the disappearing wallets. (0:59) Jackson Malik has a background in traditional markets and now is leading business development for OnRap, a leading Bitcoin financial services company.

(1:10) He spent years helping investors understand not just why Bitcoin matters, but why custody is the quiet backbone that decides who thrives and who panics. (1:21) If you’ve ever wondered how to build digital money in a way that doesn’t rely on luck, this episode is your seatbelt. (1:28) Welcome today, Jackson.

Jackson

(1:31) Thank you, Melissa. (1:32) Great to be here. (1:33) I appreciate the warm introduction.

Melissa

(1:35) Now you spent a lot of time helping people understand the Bitcoin opportunity. (1:41) Before we get to the Bitcoin custody and risk, let’s start with a little bit about your background. (1:47) What is the real investment thesis behind Bitcoin today?

Jackson

(1:51) Yeah, sure. (1:52) So I first invested in Bitcoin in 2017, but I really did not fully understand it, I would say, until 2020. (1:59) And I’ll take you through just what caught my attention at that point because really it hasn’t changed.

(2:04) Despite the volatility from 2020 through present day, early 2026, not much has changed about the investment thesis behind Bitcoin. (2:12) So in 2020, I’m sure you, your audience, remembers that things got a little crazy. (2:17) And if you focus specifically on the financial markets, the response to what happened was a ton of liquidity.

(2:26) It’s unimaginable numbers of new dollars, new currencies that entered the financial markets. (2:32) Global central banks floored interest rates to zero percent, in some cases even negative interest rates, which is a weird one to wrap your head around. (2:39) And so you had so much liquidity come into markets at that point.

(2:43) And this wasn’t something new, really. (2:45) If we take a quick step back, since 1971, the dollar has actually not been pegged to any hard asset. (2:52) It used to be pegged to gold, but for over 50 years now, it has not been.

(2:56) And so what you’ve seen doesn’t matter which political party is in power. (3:00) What you’ve seen is continued deficit spending, continued inflation of the dollar that everyone’s feeling, whether it’s your house price, your insurance, your grocery bills, utility bills. (3:10) Everyone really feels it, especially now in the past five or six years.

(3:14) And so the issue, there’s no point of really looking at Bitcoin as a solution until you understand what the problem is. (3:19) And the problem is that the dollar and other currencies can just be created at will to paper over any losses, to prevent calamity in the markets. (3:29) You saw the same thing with the great financial crisis in 2008.

(3:32) The response was add more liquidity, add more dollars to the system, lower interest rates. (3:37) And so that was even to a greater degree in 2020. (3:40) And so that’s when things really started to click for me because I was actually at a front row seat to it.

(3:44) I was working on Wall Street for a couple of years at that point. (3:47) I was working with all sorts of fund managers, hedge funds, private equity, et cetera. (3:51) Everyone was making a ton of money, Melissa.

(3:53) It was like, 2020 was a terrible year for a lot of small businesses, but for Wall Street, it was a phenomenal year because there was just so much liquidity that came into markets and all the asset classes were ripping. (4:04) So to me, it was like, that did not sit right with me. (4:07) Why is this happening?

(4:08) And I dug into the plumbing and what I came out on the other side was, well, Bitcoin makes a ton of sense in a system where there’s constant debasement, devaluation of the dollar, and it’s structural, meaning there is no way to avoid this outcome going forward. (4:23) And so this could be applied to Bitcoin, but it also applies to real estate, equities, et cetera. (4:28) People don’t want to save in dollars.

(4:30) They increasingly don’t want to allocate to bonds. (4:32) They want to own things that will actually grow and preserve their purchasing power. (4:36) So Bitcoin is attractive because there’s only 21 million Bitcoin.

(4:41) So this is, and we can get into the details, but high level, there’s only 21 million. (4:45) Nobody can change that. (4:46) No individual, no government, no corporation, et cetera.

(4:49) So it’s actually the first time that scarcity has existed digitally. (4:53) And the issuance of it is predetermined, meaning how we got from zero Bitcoin in 2009 to 21 million in about a hundred years from now is predetermined. (5:02) There’s no changing the supply and the rate of which that new supply comes on board.

(5:07) So it’s actually an incredibly scarce asset relative to the dollar, if you want to make it that simple. (5:15) And so that’s why over the past 15, 16 years, more and more people have been considering Bitcoin as an investable asset because they’re just looking for scarcity. (5:23) People are just looking for whether it’s purchasing investment properties or it’s purchasing just S&P 500 or name your favorite software stock.

(5:30) People are looking for assets that are more scarce than the dollar.

Melissa

(5:33) Ready to lead smarter and invest wiser? (5:37) On the Executive Connect podcast, we unpack executive strategies for wealth and influence. (5:44) Hit the subscribe button now.

(5:46) Don’t just watch, act. (5:48) Yeah, absolutely. (5:49) Now let’s get into, talk a little bit about why custody matters more than people realize.

(5:55) I think when I first started in the Bitcoin space, I was just buying it much like I bought stocks. (6:02) But a lot of newcomers are thinking Bitcoin is the hardest part. (6:07) But you said the real story is the custody.

(6:09) What makes the custody such a critical piece with Bitcoin?

Jackson

(6:14) Yeah, I mean, it’s really the problem to solve. (6:17) So it’s easy to buy Bitcoin, especially now in 2026. (6:20) But even before the ETFs were launched 2 years ago, it was easy to buy Bitcoin.

(6:24) You could go to Coinbase, you could go to Kraken, just name your large exchange, US-based, and you could set up an account in 5 or 10 minutes and you could start purchasing Bitcoin. (6:34) It was easy to do. (6:36) Now anyone who starts to more seriously allocate to Bitcoin ends up having a problem that they need to address.

(6:43) It’s how do I secure this? (6:44) Because, Melissa, you and I and your listeners, everyone has heard of the stories of people diving through landfills trying to recover old computers that have Bitcoin on it from a decade ago. (6:55) Or you read about FTX collapsing in 2022.

(6:59) Or name your front page of the newspaper, there’s been no shortage of issues that have happened as it related to Bitcoin custody. (7:08) And so why I think it’s so important and what most people miss is that it goes back to there only being 21 million. (7:14) And so you cannot create more Bitcoin.

(7:17) And so any Bitcoin that is lost is permanently lost and not recoverable. (7:22) If you juxtapose that to the financial system, if you own an equity, for example, that issuance or that ownership is a record. (7:34) And that record is kept with multiple custodians.

(7:36) And if the record is lost or damaged, well, there’s backups of it. (7:40) And just losing the record doesn’t mean that the company that you own ceases to exist, right? (7:46) It’s like if you have the title to a property, you lose the title, you have to go get another title issued.

(7:52) Well, the property doesn’t just disappear. (7:54) But the issue with Bitcoin is if you lose the keys, which are think of like the password to the Bitcoin wallet, well, then you’re toast. (8:01) There’s almost no likelihood of you ever recovering the Bitcoin.

(8:04) And so it’s been so challenging because there’s 21 million and losses are permanent. (8:10) And I’ll just show you a pull up this one slide here real quick to show the audience how many losses there have been in this space. (8:17) So this was captured when Bitcoin was roughly $100,000.

(8:20) Of course, we’ve drawn back quite a bit since then. (8:24) But directionally, this is what you’re looking at. (8:26) When Bitcoin is about $100,000, it was a $2 trillion market.

(8:30) With the rest of the asset space, it was about $3.5 trillion or so. (8:34) And there was over $600 billion of permanent losses. (8:38) Compare $600 billion to $3.5 trillion. (8:41) That is a crazy number. (8:43) And so this is because there’s only been I’ll show you one more slide here. (8:47) There’s only been really two ways to manage your Bitcoin, and they both have pretty significant tradeoffs.

(8:52) So the first would be where most people start. (8:54) You open up a Coinbase account. (8:55) I just use them because they’re the familiar name, public company.

(8:58) They’ve been around for a long time. (8:59) But you could replace Coinbase with any exchange. (9:01) You open up an exchange account.

(9:03) You start buying Bitcoin. (9:05) If you’re listening to different analysts in the space, listening to podcasts, you might start to hear that, well, the exchange custody is not secure because your wallet can be hacked. (9:14) Your Gmail can be hacked.

(9:16) Someone could steal your credentials, log in and move your Bitcoin out. (9:19) And so what a lot of proponents will talk about is self-custody. (9:22) Now, Melissa, this is interesting because you can actually manage the Bitcoin yourself.

(9:26) You could buy a device called a hardware wallet and you could send Bitcoin from your Coinbase account to a hardware wallet. (9:33) But now that you’re no longer relying on an institution, great. (9:36) I don’t have to worry about my Coinbase account being hacked.

(9:39) But now I have to worry about managing this device and the password indefinitely. (9:44) And if I lose it, no one is coming to save me. (9:47) So it’s been really challenging, especially once you start to allocate in size and you start to make Bitcoin more of a strategic allocation in your portfolio, and it grows in purchasing power over time, it is really challenging to navigate this.

(10:00) And so we can definitely get into more detail on ways to think about solving it. (10:04) But this is the challenge that’s existed for the past 15 years is how do you keep your Bitcoin safe?

Melissa

(10:10) That’s a great point. (10:11) So at what point in the investor journey should custody be a primary consideration rather just an afterthought? (10:21) So is it a dollar amount?

(10:22) Like if people are buying $1,000 a month or whatever, $500 a month of Bitcoin, at what dollar amount, at what coin amount, is there a certain piece that they should be thinking of?

Jackson

(10:37) I would say it’s good to just be educated early on. (10:41) And so obviously the stakes rise as the amount of Bitcoin that you own increases, right? (10:48) I would say with our business, it’s a tough question to answer because for everyone, a dollar amount could be different, for a Bitcoin amount could be different.

(10:56) It’s all relative to your total net worth and what you can afford or not afford to lose, right? (11:02) So I would say as Bitcoin starts to get more meaningful for an investor and it becomes, maybe it’s not a thousand, maybe it’s not 10,000, maybe it’s 50,000, who knows? (11:12) At some point there’s a number where it’s like, okay, well, I really do not, I cannot afford to lose this.

(11:17) I’ve transitioned from thinking about this as something to speculate on to something that actually I deeply understand. (11:24) I think education is a big part of this. (11:26) So I would say a part of that is moving from, this is something I may put a few hundred bucks in or a few thousand bucks, because I think I’m going to get rich from it, by the way.

(11:35) Don’t have that attitude about Bitcoin. (11:37) It’s really going to test your patience. (11:38) It’s very volatile.

(11:40) But if you transition from thinking that way into long-term, okay, Bitcoin makes a lot of sense in the context of the broader financial system. (11:46) I think I’m going to continue to add to this, but now I need to really think about custody. (11:51) That number could be different for anyone, but I would just challenge the, or at least leave the audience thinking about what is the number where I cannot afford to lose this?

(12:01) Or when do I actually start taking this more seriously than just something I’m throwing a couple hundred bucks at or a couple thousand bucks at?

Melissa

(12:08) So going back to your example, so for those that are custodying through Coinbase and they have taken it off Coinbase onto what you were onto a hardware wallet device, what’s the trade-off? (12:24) Why would somebody do that?

Jackson

(12:27) Right. (12:27) So look, Coinbase, again, we’re not disparaging Coinbase, but I want to use them as an example because everyone knows them. (12:36) Coinbase’s infrastructure, I just want people to be clear, Coinbase’s infrastructure is very secure, at least from my perception.

(12:43) I think since they were launched in 2012, 2013, I don’t think there has actually been any sort of issue at their infrastructure level. (12:52) Now that said, meaning like how they manage the keys, how they keep the Bitcoin secure. (12:56) Now that said, it’s not uncommon to know someone or hear of someone who’s had their Coinbase account hacked or another exchange account hacked.

(13:04) The issue, Melissa, is not necessarily that Coinbase and how they manage the keys is insecure, but it’s more so the fact that there’s very weak points of authentication between the end user and their Coinbase account. (13:18) Like think about if you had a Fidelity account or Charles Schwab account, someone cannot really get your credentials, start liquidating all of your holdings in your Fidelity account and move all the money out. (13:27) There’s just a lot of controls in place that prevent that from ever happening.

(13:31) This industry is so nascent that this happens all the time. (13:35) If your credentials are leaked or your data is leaked, it is more likely than not someone can access your Bitcoin on an exchange and steal it from you. (13:43) And not only that, not only about the credentials getting leaked, there are very sophisticated attacks that happen now where you get calls from people who pretend that they’re from Coinbase or whatever exchange.

(13:54) They know information about you because your information’s been leaked and they know your name and your address and they’re pretending like they need to verify things. (14:02) So I would say, Melissa, it’s less about Coinbase being insecure from an infrastructure perspective. (14:07) It’s more so that exchange accounts just have very little verification and protections in place that would prevent someone from having unwanted access to your account.

(14:16) Hundreds of millions of dollars are stolen out of these accounts every single year. (14:20) And that, I think, is embedded in the psychology of many investors as to why they don’t want to touch Bitcoin in the first place, because they read about these different headlines. (14:28) And to them, it’s like, well, great, Bitcoin sounds appealing as an investment, but it doesn’t sound appealing to the extent that someone could just steal it all from me.

(14:35) Right. (14:36) And so the other thing as well, before I tell you more about self-custody, because this is just really one-on-one things that are good to understand is, so there’s the hacks, the social engineering and things that happen in this industry. (14:52) And then you generally want to avoid what’s called a single point of failure in Bitcoin custody.

(14:58) And so even though I said, now I’ll talk the other side, even though I said Coinbase is very secure as an institution, there’s still a single point of failure. (15:07) And to the extent that they’re compromised in some way, their infrastructure is compromised, they have internal employees that are colluding, crazy things happen in this space. (15:17) So to the extent you have all your Bitcoin with Coinbase, you have a single point of failure.

(15:20) I mean, if something does happen to them, even though that really nothing has happened in the past 10 years, it could result in a loss to your Bitcoin. (15:27) So these are just things that investors are thinking about, which naturally kind of pushes them toward self-custody, meaning, this is just a phone, but meaning having a physical device that you manage Bitcoin on your physical person. (15:41) And so people do this to remove all those risks of exchanges, but now it introduces other risks because now it’s, you have to become an expert at managing these keys.

(15:52) And definitely it can really take away peace of mind. (15:57) If you are managing a sizable amount, forget, you know, maybe a hundred or a thousand dollars, but what if you have 10,000 or a hundred thousand or a million dollars on these, you know, Bitcoin in your possession, we work with people like this all the time. (16:09) And it just wears on you because you’re constantly thinking about how do I keep this secure?

(16:14) If something happens to me, how does my spouse access it? (16:17) How do my children access it? (16:19) It’s harder to access financial services like Bitcoin-backed loans, inheritance, insurance, et cetera.

(16:25) So there’s benefits to it, but then it’s introducing other trade-offs as well. (16:28) So that’s why I say both of these options that have existed historically have had pretty significant trade-offs and have kept a lot of investors out of allocating to Bitcoin.

Melissa

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(16:57) And as a listener of the Executive Connect podcast, you can get it completely free. (17:03) Just visit moneyripples.com forward slash secrets and enter the promo code EXEC. (17:13) Now let’s talk about some of the options, the trade-offs, the risk, what you’ve learned.

(17:20) And as you mentioned, it is a fairly new space, a fairly new industry as far as people really knowing about it. (17:28) I would say when I was in my 20s, I didn’t hear anything about Bitcoin. (17:32) And now it’s everywhere.

(17:33) And so, you know, it’s evolved dramatically from paper wallets to exchange to sophisticated storage solutions. (17:42) And so as a novice investor, where does one start? (17:46) Walk us through traditional options, the trade-offs that investors face and why hundreds of billions of dollars are lost based on what you just showed us.

(17:58) And maybe just a little bit about like, is it a single point of failure? (18:01) Is it really just, it’s so new and people just make silly mistakes or have accidents?

Jackson

(18:08) Yeah, I mean, it’s a mix of everything, right? (18:11) It’s the fact that this technology has only existed for 16 years. (18:15) And there was even more losses in the first couple of years than there are today, especially because Bitcoin at that point was not worth nearly as much as it was today, right?

(18:24) So people didn’t take the same level of, they didn’t bring the same level of attention to detail and security precautions when Bitcoin was a hundred dollars as it would be when it was a hundred thousand. (18:36) And so a lot of the losses happened early on. (18:39) There was even this whole notion of not your keys, not your coins, meaning you’re having physical control of Bitcoin and self-custody.

(18:46) That entire ethos came out of the collapse of Mount Gox, which was a Japanese-based exchange in 2014, where six or 700,000 Bitcoin was lost, like a crazy number. (18:58) And so that really scarred the industry in many ways. (19:02) And it led people to take self-custody and have this natural skepticism towards centralized institutions, like exchanges that hold your Bitcoin.

(19:16) And then fast forward to 2022, that was more recent and more people were paying attention and Bitcoin was on more people’s radars. (19:21) You might remember that FTX was the World Series sponsor. (19:26) FTX logo was on the World Series.

(19:29) And then a month later, their exchange blew up, right? (19:32) And so I think that there’s just been this perception from investors that it could all go up in smoke one day. (19:39) And I don’t want to touch it because it’s almost better not to invest in Bitcoin than invest in it and lose it all.

(19:47) I think that hurts more. (19:48) And so there’s just this perception that I don’t want to touch it. (19:50) There’s too many risks associated.

(19:52) It’s too challenging to do it. (19:54) The good thing is that there’s a lot of reliable ways to buy Bitcoin now. (19:57) I mean, the most obvious one and the lowest friction one would be buying a Bitcoin ETF.

(20:02) I don’t think that’s optimal for a number of reasons. (20:05) It still centralizes custody. (20:07) It still is a single point of failure.

(20:08) You can’t actually get Bitcoin out of the ETF. (20:10) You can only sell it for dollars. (20:13) So there’s limitations to it.

(20:14) But if someone just wanted to start with getting some price exposure in their portfolio to Bitcoin’s performance, the ETF is very easy to do, right? (20:23) It’s a click of a button in your brokerage account. (20:26) There are other ways to do it that are easy now and secure that are outside of the ETF, actually owning Bitcoin directly.

(20:33) And so that’s what we do at OnRamp. (20:35) There are other companies as well. (20:36) River is a great example.

(20:39) But essentially, where this industry needs to get to, to actually have mass adoption, to have people want to participate and own Bitcoin, is you need to remove these risks or eliminate them as much as you can. (20:51) And so that speaks more to the solution that we’re building. (20:54) There’s other companies that are trying to build a similar solution that we already provide to the market, where essentially you no longer need to trust a single institution that could be compromised and result in a loss.

(21:04) But you also don’t need to trust yourself. (21:06) You also do not need to become an expert at managing the keys yourself. (21:11) And so really we’re reducing friction.

(21:13) If I were to go back to the 90s, and you talk about what early internet adoption looked like, people used to run their own email servers and do all these things in their home. (21:22) Everyone uses Gmail now, or everyone uses name your favorite inbox provider, right? (21:28) If you compare the early Bitcoin days, the early internet days, running your own email server is akin to managing your own keys in Bitcoin.

(21:36) There’s always going to be people that do it, but it will not be the standard, in my opinion, that gets us to mass adoption 10, 20, 30 years from now. (21:45) It just needs to be easier. (21:46) It needs to be more secure.

(21:47) And so that’s what we’re focused on at OnRamp. (21:49) And of course, other companies in the space are focused on as well.

Melissa

(21:54) Yeah, it’s so true, because I think I even think back to 2000, when you said that, I’m like, yeah, everybody thought their money was going to disappear in their bank accounts. (22:02) There was this mass exodus of people taking money out of their checking accounts. (22:07) It’s just new, right?

(22:09) And so I think people are a little more cautious about their money and how they do it. (22:14) So there is risk. (22:15) I mean, there’s risk in everything, right?

(22:17) There’s risk in everything we invest in, whether it’s real estate or stocks. (22:22) And we continue to see that with our markets. (22:24) And so as the market matures and custody is no longer just about storage, it’s about the infrastructure, the financial institutions catching up.

(22:35) And what do you think about how custody solutions have evolved in that space? (22:43) Are they catching up? (22:45) I’ve seen different emails that have come into my inbox on potential new ways to custody Bitcoin and get it out of Bitcoinbase.

(22:55) Talk to me a little bit about these kind of sophisticated solutions.

Jackson

(23:00) Yeah, sure. (23:01) And it always will be an evolution, right? (23:03) I mean, if Bitcoin does succeed, then we will need to continue to push the frontier of innovation and also security.

(23:14) And it’s a touchy subject, too, when you talk about innovation, because with Bitcoin, you’re talking about money. (23:21) People are transferring, essentially selling their dollars to buy Bitcoin, right? (23:26) And so you want to innovate and you want to address the growing risks and concerns that people have.

(23:34) But you don’t want to innovate too fast. (23:35) No one wants to be the first person through the door when it’s dealing with their money, right? (23:40) And so you need to.

(23:42) It’s really a delicate balance of pushing what’s possible, providing infrastructure and solutions that address the concerns, solve the challenges that people have, but also not doing it too quickly because no one wants to have their money in something that’s new, that isn’t battle tested, that isn’t proven. (23:59) And one of the, I think we really did well as a company to match these two, because what we do, like, honestly, it’s not that innovative. (24:09) I’m surprised that no one did it before we did.

(24:11) And now other companies are building it. (24:13) But what we did, Melissa, was we took something that already existed with Bitcoin, and I’m going to try to avoid getting too technical. (24:20) It’s really not a complex topic, but some of the terms and jargon sound like it is.

(24:24) There’s something called multi-signature or multi-sig. (24:29) All this means for the listener, all this means is you can have multiple keys associated with an underlying Bitcoin wallet. (24:36) And when I talked about earlier, how if you lose the keys, then you’ve lost the Bitcoin.

(24:40) The benefit of multi-signature is rather than having a one-to-one relationship with one key to access one wallet, you can have multiple keys to access that wallet. (24:50) And you can configure it in a way, for example, two of three of those keys are needed to access the Bitcoin wallet. (24:57) And so this multi-signature technology is not something that we invented.

(25:01) Funny enough, BitGo, which is a company that we’ve partnered with, actually just went public about three weeks ago on the New York Stock Exchange. (25:09) Mike Belshi, who’s the CEO of BitGo, was one of the essentially inventors of multi-sig back in 2011, 2012. (25:19) So this technology multi-sig is used by BitGo.

(25:22) It’s used by Coinbase. (25:23) They all use it internally, Anchorage, name your institutional custodian. (25:27) And so what that means is they have multiple keys associated to wallets so that if there is any slip up, any challenges that the assets are not irrecoverable, the issue is if that institution is managing all the keys and something happens to all of them or enough of them, then you still have losses.

(25:42) So what we did at OnRamp to talk about, Melissa, the future of security infrastructure and just having peace of mind in this space is we did something. (25:51) We took battle-tested multi-signature, securing hundreds of billions of dollars of Bitcoin already, been around for over a decade. (25:57) And what we did that was new three years ago when we started the business was you have multiple, instead of having BitGo or having Coinbase manage all of the keys internally, why don’t you have multiple independent institutions that participate, collaborate, cooperate in managing the wallet on behalf of the end client?

(26:17) And so what we’re looking at on the screen here is you have OnRamp, which is our company, Texas-based. (26:21) BitGo, they’re based in California, but we work specifically with their trust company in South Dakota. (26:26) And then you have CoinCover in the UK, and we have other partners as well, but this is our standard configuration.

(26:32) And what you’re looking at here is there’s three keys, each institution manages one of them, and you need two of these three keys or two of these three institutions to access your Bitcoin. (26:42) So actually one of the cool things about this and what ultimately gives confidence and peace of mind to our clients is something can happen to us or something could happen to one of our partners and it no longer results in a loss of your Bitcoin. (26:53) That’s a really important breakthrough.

(26:55) And so this is what I’m really confident will become the standard. (26:58) It doesn’t mean that OnRamp is the only shop in town, but I’m confident that this way of managing Bitcoin multi-institution custody will become the standard because we already talked about the trade-offs of the other ones where you’re either managing it yourself, which will become more and more untenable as Bitcoin continues to appreciate over time. (27:16) And then the other option is we’ll leave it all with Coinbase or leave it all with name your centralized custodian.

(27:21) We already talked about the risks there. (27:22) So I’m very confident that this decentralized distributed risk managed way to secure Bitcoin will be the standard and it’ll become more obvious in the next five years.

Melissa

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(28:30) It made me think, so I, you know, spend a lot of my career in regulated markets, regulated industries, banking, healthcare, gambling. (28:41) So how do regulatory frameworks influence the development of these custody services?

Jackson

(28:49) Yeah, that’s a great question. (28:50) It’s, as you probably know, it’s been a very unregulated industry for quite some time. (28:56) And we’re starting to see that change.

(28:58) You have last year, the genius act was passed, which was mostly focused on stable coins and integrating stable coins into the traditional financial system. (29:07) Right now, it’s unclear when the clarity act will, will be passed and what that’ll look like. (29:12) But the clarity act, something we’re paying attention to in the industry that’ll really help to define what’s what in terms of commodities, securities, market structure, et cetera.

(29:22) Cause one thing that’s interesting is there’s been, you know, there’s been back and forth and differing opinions on right. (29:28) Well, right now, Bitcoin is deemed a commodity, but there’s a lot of ambiguity and a lot of gray area around the rest of the space. (29:35) Are these securities?

(29:37) So are these unregistered securities? (29:38) That would be a big problem with the SEC. (29:40) Are they commodities as well?

(29:42) So Bitcoin is already in a, in a more, I would say, clear position from a regulatory framework than the rest of the space, but it’s still nascent, right? (29:51) I mean, regulations really have just been the past couple of years, but I do ultimately think that having a balance of regulation, if it’s over-regulated, I think that becomes a problem for a number of reasons, but having at least some clear guidelines and providing some investor protections will be important because to be honest, there’s a lot of riffraff in this space. (30:12) I mean, that’s a whole nother tangent.

(30:14) We don’t even need to go on the show today, but there are so many different cryptocurrencies out there now. (30:19) And pretty much all of them are worthless and noise, but retail investors don’t know that they see things moving quickly. (30:26) They get, they hear from a friend about, Oh, did you hear about this?

(30:29) Did you buy this? (30:30) And that’s so many people lose money. (30:31) It’s really unfortunate.

(30:33) And so I think ultimately having some regulation and some clarity in this space will do wonders for helping people to know what’s what.

Melissa

(30:42) Yeah. (30:42) And you, you make a really good point and we see this in the, the casino gaming industry, over-regulation delays and slows down innovation. (30:51) And so I just going to correlate it in my industry.

(30:55) So the younger generations are not going to play the old slot machines as much because they’re used to using their cell phones. (31:02) So we had a period where, you know, a certain age group was playing these games. (31:08) So we’ve seen the slowdown of tech or excuse me, the slowdown of the regulations being so regulated.

(31:17) It takes time for the new technology to catch up because of the additional testing, the additional scrutiny that the tools have to go through to get out to the market for patrons to play. (31:30) And so there, it is really good point. (31:33) Too much regulation can, can affect things moving faster.

(31:38) And we want, you know, the beauty of Bitcoin is it’s, it’s an, it’s new technology versus showing up to the bank and depositing your money and hoping it grows. (31:49) Right. (31:49) And so I think it’s, it’s spot on with a regulation is really keeping up, you know, we have to have something, but how much has something, what is that nice blend?

(31:59) So people they’re investing in, it feels safe and they want to invest in it versus there’s so much regulation. (32:06) We can’t accomplish what we need to do with the custody and such. (32:10) So for everyday investors, family offices, or people thinking long-term about Bitcoin, how does custody unlock that like broader adoption of Bitcoin?

(32:29) So do you tie custody to people wanting to invest more in Bitcoin outside of just Coinbase?

Jackson

(32:38) A hundred percent. (32:39) Yeah, totally. (32:41) I totally think so because right.

(32:44) If you, if you as an investor cannot feel confident in what you’re doing, you may never do it, or you may do it to a much lesser extent than you actually want to. (32:52) And what I mean by that, right. (32:53) Is maybe you want to buy a whole Bitcoin, call it $70,000 or so.

(32:57) Maybe you want to do that, but your lack of education and your perception of all the risks out there, not knowing what the solutions are may prevent you from doing that. (33:08) So instead of investing the 70K to have one Bitcoin as part of your broader wealth strategy, maybe you put a thousand dollars or $5,000 and just kind of forget about it. (33:18) So this is actually critical because I think without solutions that provide security, peace of mind, most people will stay sidelined for a long time.

(33:26) And I think that’s a shame because Bitcoin has done good for me. (33:30) I’ve had to kind of figure things out as I go and I did the self custody. (33:35) I’ve been on Coinbase before, but now I use on-ramp for my own personal assets for my family.

(33:41) And it’s nice to just kind of eat your own dog food, right? (33:43) You’re, you’re, we’re building something that I’m actually using and it helps me. (33:47) And I know it helps countless other people as well.

(33:49) So I think it’s absolutely critical. (33:51) Put us aside for a second, just for this industry to be focused on building solutions and standards that give people peace of mind, that give them confidence and know that I can actually invest in this and not have to worry about it. (34:04) Because my bear case is that Bitcoin does become just part of the investable universe.

(34:11) My bear case is that everyone owns a little bit of Bitcoin in their portfolio in the next five, 10 years. (34:16) My bull case is that Bitcoin actually will become a global form of money, which sounds crazy. (34:22) It’s a whole nother discussion to have, but even in the bear case, we’re still in the very early stages of investors starting to understand Bitcoin and starting to incorporate it into their portfolio.

(34:33) And so I think it would be a real shame for people who want to do that, but ultimately can’t find the right solution or get confident and end up not doing it. (34:41) So I think it’s arguably one of the most important things.

Melissa

(34:46) Okay. (34:46) So if we’re having this conversation three years from now, where do you believe or what do you believe will have changed the most?

Jackson

(34:55) I think the stigma around owning Bitcoin will be gone. (34:59) And I hope we kind of talked about it briefly before we hit record. (35:02) I hope that it’s less politicized than it is today, because I was telling you that it’s just a technology, right?

(35:08) If you politicize Bitcoin, it’s almost like politicizing the internet. (35:12) The internet is just a tool that you use to access information, to work, to do things online. (35:18) Bitcoin is just a tool that you can use to preserve and grow your purchasing power outside of a financial system that is destroying your purchasing power through the dollar, through inflation.

(35:28) And so I hope it becomes more mainstream. (35:30) I think it will, because now I’m someone who really likes to go back to incentives and what are the incentives for adoption? (35:38) Well, now you do have all the biggest Wall Street firms.

(35:40) They can make money from Bitcoin, right? (35:42) They have Bitcoin products now. (35:43) So they’re incentivized to be proponents of it.

(35:46) That was not the case a few years ago. (35:48) You have people, both Democrats and Republicans in different states that are advocates for Bitcoin. (35:54) And I think Bitcoin could do wonders for local communities, for states, for a number of reasons.

(36:00) And so what I would expect in the next three years is the stigma to be at least lessened or potentially removed from Bitcoin. (36:09) And there’s just a much wider understanding of what it is, why someone would own it. (36:13) Because right now it’s very unclear and it kind of ties back to what we said earlier.

(36:17) It’s hard to distinguish what’s the difference between Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies if you’re new to this, right? (36:22) And so everything’s a stepping stone. (36:23) It requires just a lot of education like any new technology would.

(36:27) We talked about artificial intelligence a bit as well. (36:30) For someone to actually become proficient at that, it requires a lot of education to get there. (36:34) It’s not something you just open up Claude by Anthropic one day and you’re great at using Claude code or whatever you’re doing.

(36:42) This takes time. (36:43) And so Bitcoin is no different. (36:45) I think three years from now, we’ll be in a totally different place.

(36:48) And I ultimately think that anyone who has a long-term view of this asset ends up doing pretty well. (36:54) But it’s definitely not something that you should expect to buy and get rich from because it’s going to be very painful and it’s going to take a lot longer than you think.

Melissa

(37:03) Yeah, well said. (37:05) Thank you so much for being here today. (37:07) I loved the discussion.

(37:10) I want to get any kind of final thoughts or anything that we didn’t touch on that you want to leave with our listeners and then kind of second piece, tell us a little bit about the best way to connect with you and learn more about the good work you’re doing.

Jackson

(37:24) Thanks, Melissa. (37:24) Well, I would say for anyone who does want to get in touch, you can find me, Jackson, at onrampbitcoin.com. (37:31) So you can shoot me an email.

(37:32) I’m happy to answer questions. (37:34) I’m speaking with people all day, every day, and no question is stupid. (37:37) So feel free to reach out.

(37:39) And then if you just want to check out the website, it’s onrampbitcoin.com. (37:42) I did want to call out a few things just very quickly in terms of what people can expect with what we do. (37:48) So we talked about custody, but I just want everyone to know as well that insurance is on every account through Lloyd’s of London.

(37:53) We do inheritance planning, built-in dynasty trust for more comprehensive estate planning. (37:59) Bitcoin IRAs, if that’s interesting, you can buy Bitcoin through us. (38:02) So there’s a whole bunch of things that you can do with us.

(38:04) And I just want people to know it’s not only about custody, but arguably, as we discussed today, custody is the most important aspect because that gives you the security to invest long term. (38:14) So I would say, and then my final thought would be, look, it’s volatile. (38:17) I think we’re down 40-ish, 45% from the all-time high.

(38:21) This is normal behavior. (38:24) I think Bitcoin, it’s been published over 400 times in different publications that Bitcoin has been deemed dead. (38:29) And I had a guest, Eric Balchunas, on from Bloomberg last week on my podcast, and he equates Bitcoin to Rocky.

(38:35) It’s like, if you watch the Rocky movies, do you actually expect Rocky to die? (38:40) No, he might get beat up a little bit in the movie, but he ultimately wins. (38:44) And so it’s a great analogy.

(38:46) The volatility can be tough to stomach, and that’s why it’s good to have a team that’s there to support you and answer questions for you.

Melissa

(38:53) Well said. (38:54) By the way, since you said it, Rocky was like my power song when I was an athlete. (39:00) So as you’re saying that movie, that was one of my power songs in high school.

(39:05) I love it. (39:06) And in college. (39:07) So what a great way to end.

(39:09) Thank you so much for being here and sharing your knowledge with our listeners. (39:14) That’s the Executive Connect podcast.

Jackson

(39:16) Thank you, Melissa.